[shark]

Nai et al

Re IYT what is the point of doing them if the aim is engage your shoulder when shoulder shrugs on a bar or edge is more directly relatable?

It’s not just a shoulder work out, even on the knees it’s a full chain tension work out, obviously even more so on the feet. Similar core engagement to a plank but harder

So my question still stands - what is the point

[SA Chris]

Not doing things that will injure your shoulder by hanging your full weight that is tending to twist a couple of crucial tendons know to be prone to injury

[teestub]

A. Bollocks
B. Don’t call them max hangs if they aren’t (this isn’t a go at you Carl)

Find me a strength training program that recommends use of 100% load every session.

I have it on good authority that TRX I’s and Y’s make the throw to the horn easier 😂

[shark]

2 mins in. Strength training means maximal muscle activation

[RobK]

Also, if I find my true max load on a single hang, I wouldn't then be able to bash out 6 sets of it. You're going to have to back off a little if you want any useful amount of time under tension, no?

Edit: Which is literally what is said in the video above at about 2.40.

[yetix]

IYT on rings for me was always about improving body tension/an ability to elongate my body as much as I can both vertically and horizontally. so I can squeeze wider, but also keep my feet on much lower too. I'm sure this can be trained other ways but for me rings seems super efficient. Other than climbing and a little fingerboarding IYTs are all I tend to do for training these days, a lot of the other stuff I feel I can get from trying a range of problems at a range of angles outside really.

[shark]

Not doing things that will injure your shoulder by hanging your full weight that is tending to twist a couple of crucial tendons know to be prone to injury

That’s a reasonable point. I quite often do shrugs with my feet on the ground with my heels lifting to reduce the intensity. Maybe the case if you are prone to injury like this then most firms of pull-ups and pull up training should be avoided. Still not obvious to me that IYT movements will help engage the shoulder for pulling up

[abarro81]

I don't quite understand your description of being side on and rotating: I think you would only rotate if you start front on?

I also rotate from side on, eventually spinning off the hold. The more I can get a thumb or the palm of my hand on on (either on the edge of the hold, or on a hold beneath, e.g. happens a lot with the palm on the lower part of a jug), the less I rotate. Also, the easier the hang is the less I rotate - so I wouldn't generally rotate doing shoulder shrugs/holds (aka scapula holds, stability holds etc.) because for me they're ok. I don't really have a point I'm making, just that rotating from side on is something that happens to me too.

Re IYT what is the point of doing them if the aim is engage your shoulder when shoulder shrugs on a bar or edge is more directly relatable?

Works other muscles innit (i.e "if the aim is engage your shoulder" is a misrepresentation/misunderstanding of the aim of these exercises - compression, gastons, pressing, strength in wide positions etc). Worth also distinguishing between prone (face down) and supine (face up) as IYTs in each are very different, and work different  things. I usually prefer rings for prone stuff as the straps get in the way less. While TRX work is not as good training for shoulder engagements as doing shoulder engagements is, it has some transfer to it, and has other benefits too. Plus it's fairly easy to add in and generally not very injurious for most people (certainly less tweaky than actual shoulder shrugs, especially once you start doing them on 1 arm with dumbells in the other hand, where you (or I at least) can't do many sets before I feel like I should back off).

We've been through the 1RM every session thing before. Even when DV chimed in you stuck to your belligerent approach to this. As per Teestub, I also don't think I've seen or heard any strength coach advocate 1RM every session. I'd bet £100 right now that you wont find Lattice, Gresh, Buster, Power Company, Climb Strong or Training Beta writing plans that include 1RM in every session. Targeting only one thing in your strength training is leaving a lot of opportunity untapped. It would also mean you'll never pull on a mono since you'll always be injured on day 1 of your "prep for Margalef/Buoux" training plan 

DM's vid is essentially saying he likes going to failure (different from 1RM), but is unfussed whether that's via 5 reps of 5s vs 10 reps of 10s etc 10 reps of 10s will not be at 1RM (how many power lifters do we think match a PB 10 times in one session?). Others will like failure less (e.g. Bechtel) due to the higher injury risk. Others will advocate failure in different ways (e.g. 7-on-13-off or 7-on-6-off*). I bet DM does non-1RM max training in his other sessions too, away from the hangs.

*As an aside, I've been doing some 7-on 13-off x3 recently, I like it a lot so far.

[nai]

Still not obvious to me that IYT movements will help engage the shoulder for pulling up

Supposing you had a project involving a traverse that being stronger with arms out ot the side would help?

[abarro81]

Still not obvious to me that IYT movements will help engage the shoulder for pulling up

Supposing you had a project involving a traverse that being stronger with arms out ot the side would help?

Maybe where the traverse was the redpoint crux, and used gastons, so you need to have the ability to remain strong in certain shoulder muscles despite fatigue? Sounds very unrealistic to me 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that throwing in some TRX will turn most 8a climbers into 8b climbers or whatever. This is never going to be the heart of a training plan (hard bouldering, some hangs, a good dose of various types of fitness work), but if you're tinkering for the "extra", and especially if you're at home with limited capacity to relentlessly bash out hangs all day (fatigue, niggles, don't fancy 6 months off climbing with fucked up joints) this is exactly the type of shit to gradually introduce to your plan. Very good as part of a warm-up/down for hangs.

[tomtom]

Thought I just heard the noise of a keyboard being slammed into the desk from the East.....

[teestub]

but if you're tinkering for the "extra", and especially if you're at home with limited capacity to relentlessly bash out hangs all day (fatigue, niggles, don't fancy 6 months off climbing with fucked up joints) this is exactly the type of shit to gradually introduce to your plan. Very good as part of a warm-up/down for hangs.

^this. We started by looking to identify what TT could do that would be beneficial without fucking his elbow. I assume full body core work is probably more useful for beanpoles than dwarves too 😄

[abarro81]

Thought I just heard the noise of a keyboard being slammed into the desk from the East.....

That was just you smashing it into the wall whilst TRXing in your office. Teestub-and-Barrows Coaching takes no responsibility for property damage due to lack of space with home training plans.

[duncan]

As others have said, IsYsTs can be used to describe several different exercises. I started doing the lean-back version using rings a couple of years ago, aiming to improve functional shoulder joint stability when my arm is above my head. This is the position it disclocated in at High Tor and I'm very keen to avoid another dislocation, especially when I'm somewhere like Gunung Semakut.

I wasn't especially considering scapular position or aiming to increase climbing performance but I've noted a couple of beneficial side effects: I'm a lot less likely to 'sag' in the 'core' on overhanging territory (Is and Ys) and I feel more solid doing crucifix-style moves (Ys and Ts). As IsYsTs don't use primary pulling muscles it feels to me like they can be done on relative rest days or after a fingerboard session.

[AMorris]

Trying to manage my Golfers whilst still doing some 1 arm stuff. I really like the one arm work - it works my shoulder and triceps/pecs like no other training I do - I like it. BUT I need to find a way of not aggravating the GE. From this week it seems (bizarrely) that the 1 arm PU with a fair bit of weight off (-12kg) aggravates less than 1 arm hangs/locks (Sat)... I;’d have thought the moving/dynamic nature of the PU would aggravate it more. Views/Opinions welcome.... Climbing on the board does not seem to really stress it (I can feel it - but it feels worked rather than aggravated if that makes sense)

I have been managing GE for a couple of years now, and after trying loads and loads of things I found the only thing which will keep it in check is religiously stretching out the forearms flexors/extensors and shoulders after every session. One armed stuff at full lock never feels good any more (though when I am fully warm I do tend not to notice it), but I can still train it without much fear of it getting worse. This might be obvious and you may well be doing this already, but thought I would mention it!

As for ab rolling, I absolutely love it (off the knees), but then again I love core for exactly the reasons you seem to hate it if I don't almost faint after a front lever at least once in a session I generally consider it a poor one. But yeah, it can fuck your back totally if you sag. Squeezing the glutes together could work, and I tend to imagine there is a length of string on my mid back pulling me up, making me focus on trying to keep that sturdy and controlling the movement with my abdominals.

Hope any of this helps you at all!

[tomtom]

The moment I stopped stretching for Ge it started feeling better! There was something on one of the lattice vids with a physio where they said the full arm (pulling tips back behind the wrist type) stretch might aggravate it as it rubs / stretches out the tendon over the joint. I stopped doing them after that and it seems better.

I also do ten min of shoulder stretches with a stiff theraband every night - and wrist antags for both tennis and golfers.

Had a fairly hard board session at lunchtime and it’s feeling fine - so something about the 1 arm lock offs that it doesn’t like! Trial end error figuring out what etc...

[AMorris]

After a long absence from the club, I am going to get back to posting my weekly drivel again. Having suffered a pretty bad A2 rupture on my left middle finger in Sept, I have slowly been getting back to it. The main progression has been getting a very sturdy camming pull up bar in my new flat. Even though I can't put my BM up, I can hang my portable from it, which my mate made me from a length of bannister with an 18mm edge routed out of it. Turns out hanging this one arm is inexplicably brutal, somehow harder to hold than the BM 12mm. Stability probably.

Anyone unfortunate enough to have stumbled across my instagram will see that I am participating in the Sharkathon, which has forced me to be mindful about how I structure my training. Not like I can go for nice long walks around Cardiff...

avg weight: 73.8kg (0.3kg decrease)

Mon: Shoulders and core. TRX Ts and supine Ts. 5s x5 front levers. TRX pushups 8 x5.
Tues: Mobility and stretching.
Weds: Fingerboarding and one arm french negatives. Fingerboarding is still dead light because of the healing pulley, but I am getting close to hanging the edge on my right for 5s. No chance hanging anything one arm half crimp on my left, but my front 3 drag is stronger than ever, and I am even starting to reassure myself that the McLeod cheat finger (4 fingers, straight index) could be possible for me now.
Thurs: Mobility and stretching.
Fri: Weighted pulls. 1 set x10 BW, 1 set x10 +10kg, 1 set x10 + 20kg, 1 set x8 +30kg, 1 set x6 +40kg, 5 sets x3 +50kg. Mobility and stretching
Sat: Fingers. Shoulders (5x5 Ts and supine Ts).
Sun: Brutal core session. 5s x5 front levers. 5 sets of lever repeaters (5s on 5s off levers with one dropped leg, alternating legs for 6 reps).

Today will be mobility and stretching again.

My psyche was completely destroyed for about 2 months after the injury, when I genuinely wondered whether or not to sell my kit. It is still not fully back, since I am fairly certain the injury is bad enough that various moves will be too risky for me now, but I certainly have some to work with.

[abarro81]

Trial end error figuring out what etc...

If there's one thing I've learnt in my endless years of injury, it's the above. The thing that matters is what pisses it off, even if this doesn't correspond to what you think "should" or "shouldn't" aggravate it, what aggravates other people's similar injuries, what your mate or ukb thinks should/shouldn't aggravate it etc...

[AMorris]

The moment I stopped stretching for Ge it started feeling better! There was something on one of the lattice vids with a physio where they said the full arm (pulling tips back behind the wrist type) stretch might aggravate it as it rubs / stretches out the tendon over the joint. I stopped doing them after that and it seems better.

I also do ten min of shoulder stretches with a stiff theraband every night - and wrist antags for both tennis and golfers.

Had a fairly hard board session at lunchtime and it’s feeling fine - so something about the 1 arm lock offs that it doesn’t like! Trial end error figuring out what etc...

Interesting! I guess mine was a result of my forearms being way too tight from years of training and no stretching conversely, for me wrist antags did basically nothing!

[tomtom]

@barrows - yeah guess it’s the scientist / programmer in me (in debug mode!) sometimes trial and error is the bluntest but quickest way of figuring out what was wrong.

@AMorris - not sure the antags help with the GE but they don’t take long and are not making it worse. They help with the TE though...

I also found that total rest didn’t help - I need to keep using the elbow and working it quite hard but keeping it below the aggravating level. This was also in the lattice vid - where the physio said sometimes stopling exercise triggered GE.

 Had an interesting distanced lockdown chat with RMan at the crag about it - and doing small reps 5 or so of pretty heavy weights (dumbbell lowers I think) ended up sorting or controlling his long term GE niggles.

Final point (honest) I tried the one arm scap/shoulder shrugs (with weight off) and found them really hard to do without bending my arm at all. Engaging the shoulder seemed to make me tense and bend the arm slightly. Possibly this is always the case? I even ended up grabbing my arm at the elbow to stop it flexing! Find them easy to get right two armed... maybe a technique / making sure form is good thing.

[Stabbsy]

@AMorris - not sure the antags help with the GE but they don’t take long and are not making it worse. They help with the TE though...

I had really bad golfers for a few years about 6/7 years ago. Read loads of stuff and tried most things suggested for a period. The one thing that fixed it was wrist curls, palm down - which is supposed to be what fixes tennis elbow, I think? If it flares up again now, a set of wrist curls fixes it almost without fail (if not, then 2 sets). I did read something that suggested doing wrist curls both palm up and palm down might be counter productive - possibly the Julian Saunders article that often gets mentioned.

[Duncan Disorderly]

M: Routes @ AW - Felt a bit lost without a project... Got on some v steep F6b+ and F6c's and just felt tired... Didn't feel like jug pulling on v steep ground was doing shoulders any favours (or training the fingers) so got on less steep F7c... Definitely did all the moves this time although the last section will either require me to have fingers of steel or far more power than I currently have to link... Something to work on I guess  Definite air of despondency at the wall... Feel like it's the only thing that's been keeping me sane recently... Go home and spend half hour repeatedly calling Boris a cunt!
T: Fucking miserable - make plan to get cellar board from Ex's house... Clear out cellar at mine... It's a damp shithole!
W: Start dismantling board at Ex's - Shoulder stability stuff.
T: Continue dismantling board.
F: Finish dismantling board - now have a van full of shite! More cellar cleaning, dehumidifier, fan and heater on full blast!... Still damp but  looks less muddy!
S: Decide to forgoe the Peak as figured half of Sheffield would be at Burbage and head to Blackberry wall (oldschool grit wall littered with crimps) - Find a mate there and have a mint couple of hours or fingery traversing... Being a little damp meant that feet were crap so had to pull harder than expected - fingers felt worked!! Shoulder stability stuff.
S: Decide to risk the Peak - wet as an otters pocket... Walk for about 6 miles thinking I should have brough the running gear... Moody! Cellar looking much better - still a health risk but needs must!

Shitty shitty shit shit.... Started badly... Psyche was low... Got better... Some positives... Shoulder seems much better so back on the fingerboard this week, hopefully get the board finished & not get some awful lung complication from breathing in 100 years of shite!

[AMorris]

... tried most things suggested for a period.

Was rather intrigued to hear about a new unorthodox school of thought on elbow tendonitis rehab for a second there   

[teestub]

I tried the one arm scap/shoulder shrugs (with weight off) and found them really hard to do without bending my arm at all. Engaging the shoulder seemed to make me tense and bend the arm slightly. Possibly this is always the case?

It’s quite hard to get right especially as you’ve been doing 1 arm stuff, as the natural inclination is to utilise the bicep to help contract the shoulder like when you’re pulling through. I found I had to take a decent amount of weight off to get the feel of doing it with a straight elbow, but then you can reduce the assistance quickly once you know what you’re doing.

[tomtom]

Cool. Thanks Tim. That’s what I thought (did a few with 12 or so kg off). Didn’t feel like I was moving it much when engaging though... when i do two armed shrugs it feels like there’s much more motion - I’ve no mirror though so just going on what it feels like though.