[Ru]

The amendment file says at the bottom of p4:

for the words in part 3 (tier 4 area) substitute:
“Every area of England, apart from the territorial waters adjacent to England and the
airspace above England and those territorial waters, is within the Tier 4 area.”.

I'm not in any way a lawyer but from an uninformed standpoint that might be the key which allows this UK wide legislation to be relevant only for England?

Yes that’s right. I was meaning that it’s unclear if this is a stop gap until further lockdown regs can be published after parliament has voted on them (today)? It may be that any further regs don’t have much different in them, or it may not.

[SA Chris]

You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.

Fishing? clearly recreation, but not really exercise?

Statement from the Angling Trust on the national lockdown rules
UPDATE – January 5, 2021

Whilst the regulations have not yet been published we have been informed this evening by the Cabinet Office that the Government have taken the decision that fishing in England will not be permitted during this national lockdown period. Whilst this is disappointing news I would ask anglers, fisheries and clubs to respect these rules and the reason they have been put in place; to help save lives and support the NHS.

Individuals should not go fishing from midnight tonight (5th January) and clubs and fisheries should close their waters to anglers.

Interesting to see what they come up with up here...

[A Jooser]

The new amendment regs have been been published but as yet there is no official consolidated version online (although they are due today). After a quick look though them it looks as though there is no longer an exception to the restriction on leaving your home for the purposes of outdoor recreation. This leaves the exception for reasonably necessary outdoor exercise. So we're back to the original question from the first lockdown of whether climbing is "reasonably necessary exercise."

I believe this is the latest consolidated version of the regulations...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

And the College of Policing / National Police Chiefs' Council briefing

There's an interesting Twitter thread from human rights barrister Adam Wagner looking at the revised regs here. In this tweet he states: "here's what's not in the law which is in the guidance:
"- Time limit on outdoor exercise;
"- Geographical limit on outdoor exercise
"- Travel between areas."

From reading the regulations I'm not sure the outdoor exercise must be 'reasonably necessary'; rather it is 'reasonably necessary...' 'to take exercise outside'. To me it seems this exercise (rock climbing is my personal preference) can be done alone, or with one other person; there is no limit to the time one can be out exercising, or how many forms of exercise one does when outdoors; and travel to exercise (any distance but presumably only within England) is not restricted. I'm not a lawyer, so please no one trust me here it's just my layman's opinion on reading it. I'm keen to hear Ru's thoughts on this.

As with the first lockdown, I think the 'guidance' doesn't appear to be fully reflected in the actual legislation. I'm also sure anyone who doesn't 'stay at home' runs the risk of getting slapped with a £200 fine from a copper regardless of what's lawful.

The Government's guidance on exercise has also been updated now, with the addition of the following: "If you (or a person in your care) have a health condition that routinely requires you to leave home to maintain your health - including if that involves travel beyond your local area or exercising several times a day - then you can do so."

[Ru]

From reading the regulations I'm not sure the outdoor exercise must be 'reasonably necessary'; rather it is 'reasonably necessary...' 'to take exercise outside'. To me it seems this exercise (rock climbing is my personal preference) can be done alone, or with one other person; there is no limit to the time one can be out exercising, or how many forms of exercise one does when outdoors; and travel to exercise (any distance but presumably only within England) is not restricted. I'm not a lawyer, so please no one trust me here it's just my layman's opinion on reading it. I'm keen to hear Ru's thoughts on this.

As with the first lockdown, I think the 'guidance' doesn't appear to be fully reflected in the actual legislation. I'm also sure anyone who doesn't 'stay at home' runs the risk of getting slapped with a £200 fine from a copper regardless of what's lawful.

I think the section is just as vaguely drafted as it was the first time around. You're right in that the exact wording refers to it being reasonably necessary to exercise, rather than the activity being reasonably necessary, but in practice I do not think this would be the way it was interpreted. If that was the intended meaning, technically you could leave your house and do anything so long as exercise was reasonably necessary. The gov has made it clear that fishing is not allowed for example, so there clearly is intended to be some sort of sliding scale about what counts as exercise and what is a disallowed recreation. Regardless of the exact meaning of the law, the reality is that climbing is likely to be allowed as a form of exercise unless you're stretching reasonableness in terms of distance travelled, hanging about rather than actually climbing, climbing in groups that "just happened" to be at the same crag etc. Distance from home is not legally limited, but the further you go, the less it may seem reasonable, although you would probably just be asked to go home rather than fined.

[Johnny Brown]

Is the BMC covid group still active Ru? I've not had any emails since Nov.

[Ru]

Is the BMC covid group still active Ru? I've not had any emails since Nov.

Yes, I’ll ask to get you added back in if you have dropped off in error l.

[tomtom]

BMC HQ on Burton Road has looked completely closed (unsurprisingly) since Tuesday... if that helps explain any silence...

[nai]

seems fishing is one of "several individual outdoor activities" that is to be allowed after all.

So bouldering should be fine. You'd hope.

[gme]

Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.

[SA Chris]

see Nai's post of 12:35 yesterday.

[Ru]

Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.

They seem to have changed their minds again. This has been taken down but it is the statement from the Angling Trust 2 days ago:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Br-i-I8dSHsJ:https://anglingtrust.net/2021/01/05/statement-on-the-new-lockdown-restrictions-in-england/+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

[nai]

Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.

Angling times report that angling trust have successfully lobbied government. Official announcement expected today.

[Fiend]

'mon the 

(I have no useful contribution, I just wanted to use that smiley. MRT will be frothing at the halos if some silly sod falls through the ice on a frozen fishing lake and has to be rescued though).

[SA Chris]

Potentially leaves a lot of " but if" questions about a lot of other activities in that case.

[nai]

Yep, I bet golf are frothing.

[lagerstarfish]

https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

[tomtom]

https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

What a good clear set of guidelines. I'm tempted to do a find replace for fishing with climbing - and send it to the BMC.

[SA Chris]

Well worded. If it was me I would have put in something about being extra cautious when sea fishing, esp from rocky areas, but otherwise good. Surprised private boat fishing is allowed though?

[gme]

Cheers. That’s good news as something to do with my youngest as all his other stuff has stopped.
I was hoping golf was in as well so we could have done that. Maybe changes for that as well, seems odd to let fishing and not golf.

[Ru]

What a good clear set of guidelines. I'm tempted to do a find replace for fishing with climbing - and send it to the BMC.

Clear, but wrong. BMC stuff is generally accurate in explaining what is guidance and what is the law.

[Fiend]

Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.

Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:

1. Travelling via driving greater distances - increased risk of accidents stressing emergency services.
2. Injuring yourself and requiring rescue or treatment - ditto.
3. Using facilities (shops, petrol) outside of your local area.
4. Further breaking covid rules via larger gatherings, not social distancing etc.

So maybe the following could be useful:

1. Double the fines and double the penalty points for any traffic / parking offences committed outside of your local area whilst on non-essential travel - discourages further travelling, encourages safer driving to reduce RTAs.

2. Mandatory call-out charge for MRT rescues, that is also doubled if you're rescued outside your local area - again discourages travel, encourages more cautious outings, self-reliance, etc. Charge can be split between MRT donation and local hospital trust.

3. and 4. Don't have one for these yet, but double fines for committing social distance / mingling offences outside local area could be one.


OBVIOUSLY there are a million and one things anyone could nitpick about enforcing this, blah blah blah whatever if I wanted fucking nitpicking I'd have posted it on a public forum full of bored climbers. But the principle seems sound to me...

[nai]

I was hoping golf was in as well so we could have done that. Maybe changes for that as well, seems odd to let fishing and not golf.

May well be, the thing I initially saw did suggest fishing was one of a few but not what the others were.

[Ru]

Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.

Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:

Travelling is not actually against the law, it's just a guideline, so it's not possible to legally enforce it in any way.

[duncan]

https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

What a good clear set of guidelines.

Except that they completely sidestep what is meant by “local” which is what most of the debate amongst climbers is about.

I see the mental health benefits of sitting by the sea and watching waves (bears a strong resemblance to my climbing) but let’s not call it exercise. The Angling Trust must have friends in the right places.

[tomtom]

https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/

What a good clear set of guidelines.

Except that they completely sidestep what is meant by “local” which is what most of the debate amongst climbers is about.

I see the mental health benefits of sitting by the sea and watching waves (bears a strong resemblance to my climbing) but let’s not call it exercise. The Angling Trust must have friends in the right places.

Local is defined by the Govt in the guidelines as in your village, town or same part of city (or words to that effect)... to me that seems pretty clear.