[mark s]

Here in the staffs moorlands we have gone to t4. I won't be leaving the area, will just keep it local to roaches and ramshaw etc. Not that it makes any difference as its snowing again. Just hope the new restrictions mean I can actually park again.

[tomtom]

Interesting Sidehaas. 👍

Would be nice to have some clarification from (for example) a National body representing climbers? Ahem...

[teestub]

For Sheff residents it would appear that the entire Burbage valley is in S Yorkshire and hence still Tier 3. As such driving from the city to climb there would still seem to be entirely reasonable, especially if you have a Lancia Delta Integrale.

[nai]

Yep, theoretically Burbage Bridge ok, Cowper Stone not. Millstone ok, Lawrencefield not.
We can feasibly also travel ~40 minutes across town to several mag-lime venues but not 10 minutes across the border to Stanage.
Common sense to be applied of course

[Stabbsy]

For Sheff residents it would appear that the entire Burbage valley is in S Yorkshire and hence still Tier 3. As such driving from the city to climb there would still seem to be entirely reasonable, especially if you have a Lancia Delta Integrale.

Burbage Valley is, but in a lot of cases the road isn’t. Ringinglow Road is in Derbyshire beyond the cattle grid (if the accuracy of the OS map is to be believed), so you’d have to park there and walk over the top if you were following rules to the letter. Surprise View car park is in Sheffield, but the road isn’t beyond Fox House or Toad’s Mouth (or not entirely anyway). Let’s hope the police don’t decide to enforce it that way.

Either way, I don’t have a Lancia Delta so maybe I should stick to the shed (and Bell Hagg, obviously).

[mark s]

I wish I had an intergrale.  I remember the days when you could get an evo 1  for 6 or 7k. Long gone is that opportunity.

[shark]

Re legality of this. The law on traveling away from your home for residents of Tier 4 is the same as the most recent lockdown, but the guidance is significantly stricter. It doesn't even just say not to leave your tier 4 area, it says not to leave your village, town or part of a city. It's fairly obvious that excludes the Peak for most people (Hathersage residents might be ok). Guidance like that never existed before.
The reason it could be important is in how the law is interpreted. Within the law, your travel away from home to take exercise or do recreation in an outdoor space has to be "reasonably necessary". In the context of the tier 4 guidance, it seems far more likely to me now that a policeman (who in practice will be making the decision for you) or theoretically a court, would judge a 45 minute drive in to the peak to be unreasonable.
Would be interested in comments from any of the lawyers...

The qualifying bit that you didn’t include that was in your ukc post that is relevant to Sheffielders:

None of the above affects someone living in a Tier 3 area from travelling to a Tier 4 area for exercise - there is nothing in the legislation to prevent that (because the legal bit all stems from the requirement to stay at home) although it is advised against in the guidance

[Sidehaas]

Yes sorry I wrote a bit more on ukc. Post on here was only about tier 4 residents.
Would still like a professional to agree/disagree really, my legal training is fairly limited.

[shark]

It’s infuriating that guidance and rules for the general public needs legal interpretation

[Bradders]

It’s infuriating that guidance and rules for the general public needs legal interpretation

Does it though? The guidance at least is now, perhaps for the first time since March, really quite clear.

If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall. The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:

- outdoor recreation or exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your Tier 4 area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

Travelling to a Tier 4 area from a Tier 1, 2 or 3 area
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:

travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)

It only needs interpretation if you actually want to dig into the underlying legislation, so as to find loopholes that allow you to continue your activity of choice (which I was absolutely trying to do yesterday  ).

No the legislation doesn't quite match up with the guidance but does that make it right to ignore it?

Anyway, I'm sure we'll be back to a full lockdown in a few days anyway so it's probably all a bit moot. I felt quite happy travelling during November's lockdown and probably will again, but the point of the tier system is to try and limit the spread of this new variant across the country, which seems to be at least worth a go.

[spidermonkey09]

Its the whole concept of guidance that I don't agree with, as has been gone over many a time on this thread. If you don't want people to do something, make it enforceable in law. By not doing that these sort of conversations become inevitable.

[petejh]

Just returned from a walk in the very snowy mountains. Looks like winter climbing connies are now starting to come in pretty good in Snowdonia. Unsure how psyched I feel to do anything much more than easier supposedly lower-risk stuff though. Lots of cars at Ogwen cottage when we got down, carpark probaly 3/4 full, with loads of people out walking around Lyn Idwal. Probably numbers at least in the high hundreds out in Snowdonia today breaking the restrictions (inc. us two). Police seemed to have given up today at least, compared to yesterday when there were a lot of people stopped and plenty of police around. This NW Police fb post and replies from yesterday sums up the state of affairs: https://www.facebook.com/NWPRPU/

I find it impossible to be concerned at any transmission risk from the outdoors activity. The only doubts in my mind are the increased RTA risk and the very tiny minority of winter climbers/hillwalkers getting an injury and needing a call-out, using up resources and risking contact with emergency staff.

I think if/when the daily death-toll rises over 1,000 and stays there for longer than the first peak, then it'll focus a lot of people's minds on thinking about what they want to be publicly seen to be doing, even if it's low risk of transmission.

[Paul B]

I'm not remotely convinced the risk of transmission between random hillwalkers justifies these restrictions. However the reality I see out and about is that people are desperate to socialise and quite happy to bend the rules, and even without car sharing there is plenty going on in the great outdoors that could cause transmission. If that is the reason for the restrictions they should state that clearly and enforce breaches though.

Lancashire police seemed to go into over-drive this weekend with their not all that accurate comms. this weekend, mostly aimed at people venturing outside (I'm assuming the snow didn't help their modd). I thought it was fairly understandable when all this kicked off, with all of the changes, that the Police kept getting confused (then there was the NPCC/CPS guidance), less so now.

[Pantontino]

The police have been present around the usual Llanberis/Ogwen mountain valley parking areas but seem tolerant of locals travelling small distances. I did speak to someone though who had driven from Llanberis to Capel to walk up Siabod - as they were putting their boots on a copper pulled up and asked them where they had come from. He said that the distance was too far and if he found them still there when he drove back round he would fine them.

[tomtom]

So - lockdown 3 in England. Has anything changed for climbing? Seemed to be (on the news channels) a hardening of the stay at home message. No non essential travel etc.. is this back to no travel for exercise?

I’ll go and look on the govt website but if anyone else finds out post up?

[gollum]

Mrs B has been reading it out, it says you can exercise but should be limited to once a day and you should not travel outside your local area...........however that is defined.

[tomtom]

So - wording looks much like the first part of lockdown 1

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

Leaving home
You must not leave, or be outside of your home except where necessary. You may leave the home to:

shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person

go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot reasonably do so from home

exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

meet your support bubble or childcare bubble where necessary, but only if you are legally permitted to form one

seek medical assistance or avoid injury, illness or risk of harm (including domestic abuse)

attend education or childcare - for those eligible
Colleges, primary and secondary schools will remain open only for vulnerable children and the children of critical workers. All other children will learn remotely until February half term. Early Years settings remain open.

Higher Education provision will remain online until mid February for all except future critical worker courses.

If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live. You may leave your local area for a legally permitted reason, such as for work.

[tomtom]

Mrs B has been reading it out, it says you can exercise but should be limited to once a day and you should not travel outside your local area...........however that is defined.

If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.

/quote

Refresh my memory - why was there a shift in May that enabled people to travel to exercise? Was a relaxation of the rules - or a reinterpretation? I think it may have been a change - as everyone started going out on one day in May...

[Bradders]

It was a change in the rules.

[shark]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

[gollum]

Relaxations started on 10/11 May and the messaging changed from Stay Home to Stay Safe.

I seem to remember initially most people didn’t venture out much.

[AJM]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

[nai]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

is that the Anston in Rotherham?

You should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live

[205Chris]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:

"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."

If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?

In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.

i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address

[shark]

For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.

is that the Anston in Rotherham?

You should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live

Sheffield postcode but I see your point