[Stuart Anderson]

Most of the Peak is now in T4 it would appear. Does this mean you shouldn’t or cannot travel into there for leisure?

Just been checking this out. Effective from Thursday if I've read it correctly.

Travelling to a Tier 4 area from a Tier 1, 2 or 3 area
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:

travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)

[spidermonkey09]

Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.

[tomtom]

Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.

Yup. The oddity is that apart from “stay local” it’s fine to go there from a T4 area like Manc will be.

[spidermonkey09]

I don't think so as travel in and out of Tier 4 areas should be avoided, regardless of whether one is going into the same tier level or not?

I'm basically over the governments advice anyway and am planning on being as sensible as I can whilst also not going mad.  National measures or nothing as far as I'm concerned; the Tiers system is an undiluted failure.

[Bradders]

Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.

Yep, this. Nothing in law still to prevent travelling for exercise regardless of your tier level or the destination tier.

The letter of the regulation still gives "exercise outside" as a "reasonable excuse" for residents of tier 4 areas to be outside their home, and I can't see anything in law which would prevent travelling into a tier 4 area for exercise either.

This differs from the guidance on the Government website, which says "you should not travel into a tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons".... which don't include exercise.

[petejh]

..
I'm basically over the governments advice anyway and am planning on being as sensible as I can whilst also not going mad.  National measures or nothing as far as I'm concerned; the Tiers system is an undiluted failure.

I'm not judging either way on the first sentence of this paragraph. But I'm interested in your rationale behind your second sentence - the guidance is now very clear, from midnight the whole of England is either tier 3 or 4, majority tier 4. So any 'national measure' now would simply mean changing the minority of tier 3 areas into tier 4 (which will no doubt happen anyway over the coming weeks). So what about a 'national measure' now would make you act any differently to how you've already decided to act, i.e. being sensible and continuing to go out?

[tomtom]

A fb post from Coniston MR suggested otherwise - that whilst travel for excercise was allowed in lockdown1 that wasn’t the case now (from T4 areas etc..). Not stirring - I think by now most climbers can make sensible decisions - but wondered if there were a legal difference we’ve missed.

[spidermonkey09]

I unfollowed MR teams om Facebook ages ago as I got sick of their moralising tone, well before covid! I appreciate the job they do hauling people off mountains but can do without their "mountain police" shtick. 

In response to Pete, it's a good point, and actually might not change my behaviour in practice now I think about it. When I typed the initial post my point was more that in the absence of any evidence of joined up thinking and forethought by the government, my acting sensibly has basically no impact on things. I would have counted an immediate national lockdown this evening as a step in the right direction and so might have got more buy in from me in terms of following rules to the letter. For me it seems quite tied up with how much faith I have in the government, back in march it was all new and scary and I was willing to dramatically curtail my climbing while they sorted things out. Now they have failed to do that I'm not sure I will act the same this time round. Clearly ethically that is problematic but it's interesting thinking it through, will continue to do so.

[petejh]

I think many feel the same, right or wrong.

And yes MR would do well to drop their moralising mountain police vibe. As the saying goes: it's a shit job but nobody has to do it.

edit.. have just returned from a drive around Snowdonia to check on winter climbing conditions in the mountains. It looks like we're going to get amazing prolonged spell of winter climbing connies and this will be the first time for around 5 years or more.. I have a list of mixed climbing FAs I'd love to try but I'm feeling very unsure of actually doing anything.. just feel like my heart's not in it. Also it's a higher risk form of climbing.  Might just stick to soloing around the hills on easy stuff.
Saw plenty of police out in the Pass and Ogwen stopping motorists.

[nai]

Is Wales the same rules/legal platform as England, police sending people home and/or fining them:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-visitors-turned-away-from-brecon-beacons-after-hundreds-of-vehicles-arrive-12175315

[Bradders]

A fb post from Coniston MR suggested otherwise - that whilst travel for excercise was allowed in lockdown1 that wasn’t the case now (from T4 areas etc..). Not stirring - I think by now most climbers can make sensible decisions - but wondered if there were a legal difference we’ve missed.

Nope, that's not correct according to the legislation.

The difference is that, as Pete said, the guidance in the tier system now says very clearly you shouldn't travel outside your local area for exercise, whereas in lockdown it didn't. The guidance is not legally enforceable though, because, as I said above, exercise outdoors by yourself or with members of your household is clearly stated as being a reasonable excuse to be outside your home.

[Bradders]

Is Wales the same rules/legal platform as England, police sending people home and/or fining them:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-visitors-turned-away-from-brecon-beacons-after-hundreds-of-vehicles-arrive-12175315

Welsh rules are different but I've not looked at them in detail. I think there's something in there about exercise having to start from and end at your home, as they're back in a full lockdown now.

[petejh]

Just edited my post above..

Yes the Wales rule is exercise must start and finish at home. It's enforceable, not just guidance.

Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc. Didn't get stopped so don't know how strictly they're enforcing the rules. I suspect the police will be asked to turn the screw and set some examples over the next two weeks.

[Bradders]

Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc.

Moving away from the legalities of it all, this really pisses me off. I mean if there's anywhere we can be pretty damn sure the virus doesn't spread it's when you're by yourself in the middle of nowhere!! Likewise driving in your car on your own.

[Wil]

 As with others I was happy to be obedient with the first lockdown and didn't go climbing. I'm far less inclined to follow advice about only exercising from home this time round, no clear case for why this is necessary has been made. There could be one, I think people's lack of imagination is one - all going to the same place, but I haven't seen evidence that this is a factor in spread.

I can't help but feel that it's a measure based on optics more than anything else though.

[Hoseyb]

I was told that there hasn't been a single proven case of transmission in the outdoors, although I haven't trawled the literature to see if its true. I could walk from home into the mountains (I live above deiniolen in North Wales), however, every other bugger is out there with the same idea. I'd rather drive 20 mins to be properly in the middle of Esoteric nowhere.

[Oldmanmatt]

Just edited my post above..

Yes the Wales rule is exercise must start and finish at home. It's enforceable, not just guidance.

Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc. Didn't get stopped so don't know how strictly they're enforcing the rules. I suspect the police will be asked to turn the screw and set some examples over the next two weeks.

A large number of “Tabbers and Yompers” were stopped, fined and turned away from the Fan today. I’m not sure why certain veterans think they’re exempt the rules, but hey ho.
They’re saying there were “hundreds” sic of people out to enjoy the snow and all were turned back and many fined.
One of the lads I know was quite indignant that, since he lived in Bristol, he was local...
Tit.

[Stu Littlefair]

I was told that there hasn't been a single proven case of transmission in the outdoors, although I haven't trawled the literature to see if its true.

This is very definitely not true. There’s a link higher up the thread by me with a review of transmission environments. Outdoor transmission is rare, but accounts for something of order of a few percent of all cases

[Johnny Brown]

I'm not remotely convinced the risk of transmission between random hillwalkers justifies these restrictions. However the reality I see out and about is that people are desperate to socialise and quite happy to bend the rules, and even without car sharing there is plenty going on in the great outdoors that could cause transmission. If that is the reason for the restrictions they should state that clearly and enforce breaches though. I don't think the KISS message of 'stay home save the NHS' is going to wash this time. OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.

[Doylo]

I just tell them it’s work and I’m paying myself in mental health tokens.

[teestub]

OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.

It was mad to read that footfall for Boxing Day sales was only 50% of last year, and that was with London and a lot of other big SE places shut, boggled my mind!

[tomtom]

Trafford centre has been one in one out since Boxing Day... at least they’re limiting numbers inside.

Bobbed into Decathlon quickly today as the lad lost his gloves and it was busier than than I felt comfortable with.

[Bradders]

OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.

This is what annoys me about the police stopping people exercising outdoors in Wales. What a total waste of time and resources when they could, for instance, be enforcing social distancing in shopping centres, or supporting mass testing, or going after actual criminals. Etc. Etc. Etc.

All that said, it does seem like this new strain is on a whole new level to what happened in March / April. Having covered the legality of it, what do people think about the morality of climbing now? Especially travelling any sort of distance? First time around there was lots of concern about putting extra strain on the NHS if you hurt yourself; with hospitals now under even more strain than in the first wave, should we be stopping voluntarily?

[dunnyg]

Nope.

[Sidehaas]

Re legality of this. The law on traveling away from your home for residents of Tier 4 is the same as the most recent lockdown, but the guidance is significantly stricter. It doesn't even just say not to leave your tier 4 area, it says not to leave your village, town or part of a city. It's fairly obvious that excludes the Peak for most people (Hathersage residents might be ok). Guidance like that never existed before.
The reason it could be important is in how the law is interpreted. Within the law, your travel away from home to take exercise or do recreation in an outdoor space has to be "reasonably necessary". In the context of the tier 4 guidance, it seems far more likely to me now that a policeman (who in practice will be making the decision for you) or theoretically a court, would judge a 45 minute drive in to the peak to be unreasonable.
Would be interested in comments from any of the lawyers...