[abarro81]

OMM - I think you've my point again. The lockdowns are to reduce new cases, presumably to a point where we hope that we can bubble along with contact tracing and and lighter rules, all whilst tracking R0 to some extent. They're not to reduce to a certain level and then say smash on with everything like normal, which of course leads to a big resurgence. I think we established that about page 2. Irrespective of whether you want to reduce new cases to 0%, 1% or 10% of where you're at, it's achieved insanely much faster by apparently small reductions in R0. You were responding to a post of Pete's that implied that R0<1 was key and why you might be more lenient with guidance, but that's still dumb until you're at the level you want because of how much quick you'll get there with a slightly lower R0. Weak lockdowns just mean it takes longer to get to a point where you can start playing with rules to find a good long-term balance.

[IanP]

And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.

As a climber and intermittently regular mountain biker and road biker my ancedotal view is that mountain biking has significantly higher risk of moderate to major injury than climbing while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing (particularly if road biking doesn't involve either bad weather conditions or heavy traffic)

[kac]

Is that the article titled 'Lockdown rules - still ambiguous but the right thing is clear '. If it is I have my doubts the author was trying to get across what you have taken from it.

[SA Chris]

Any thoughts on sharing home walls (scheduled, limited to 1 person per time, maybe max 1 per day, wipe down afterwards?)

I personally am not, even though the risk is remote, I don't anyone getting the wrong impression that we are having people round visiting, and thinking it's OK for them to do so too, even if said person is not actually entering our living space, only the garage.

[abarro81]

I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

If I've understood your circumstances right (can easily get to a local crag that no other f*cker goes to and doesn't have lots of walkers nearby), then if I were in them I'd be going climbing now. But I'm in Sheffield, so I'll go fingerboarding instead and then moan about being shit and injured on the internet. Plus ca change.

[Will Hunt]

Will, I suspect you are being a bit of a dick here for the sake of argument.

Is your point really that I cannot suggest that people get as close to possible as perfect, because I myself have not been completely perfect?

The point I thought was quite clear is that the risk from going out for a short walk run/jog etc really is extremely minimal. It's quite proper to say "try and take no more risk than that", without having to deal with the counterpoint, "ah, but the risk is not zero".

If we followed your version of "logic", we could not accept the merit of putting more gear in, because the gear might fail anyway.

No need to call me a bit of a dick. I was simply taking what you'd written at face value. It would have been very easy to write this instead:

So my rule is still simple; if there's a significant chance - even a small one - that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.

I assumed that you meant what you'd written, but I'm happy to clarify for you what your simple rule is 
As it happens, that is my rule too, and I too have been going beyond mere compliance because the law is shit.

[Coops_13]

The guidance in the USA re restarting the economy is interesting, gyms reopening earlier in the process than I'd have expected.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/

I've tried to decipher what that means for (outdoor) climbing here. I'm thinking it could fall in phase one but more likely could return in phase two (ethical discussions still relevant). However it hasn't stopped lots of people continue to climb over here   

[Stu Littlefair]

Ah Will,  now I see what you mean. Sorry about the dick thing.

What you've written is not my rule either though. It would be better written as:

If there's a chance - even a small one - that you are more likely to come into contact with someone than you would going for a stroll somewhere quiet, think really hard about whether you really need to do that thing.

Isn't that easy?

Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.

[Will Hunt]

while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

[TobyD]

I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

If I've understood your circumstances right (can easily get to a local crag that no other f*cker goes to and doesn't have lots of walkers nearby), then if I were in them I'd be going climbing now. But I'm in Sheffield, so I'll go fingerboarding instead and then moan about being shit and injured on the internet. Plus ca change.

Yep me too. Although rock rings are a depressing non substitute for a beastmaker, and I'm not injured, just shit.
Driving around Derbyshire at work, there appears to be a good level of compliance to the not driving out there advice / order.
There are a lot of police driving around, and were I tempted to go climbing I wouldn't fancy having to explain why that constituted minimal amount of time outside the house to them.

[petejh]

UKC posted an article today that to me justifies going climbing if you want to, and definitely allows for JBs trips to the peak.

I assume its been correctly researched and states its not against the rules to drive out to somewhere to exercise but the journey should be less time than the exercise, climbing ticks this box i guess.

It says that whilst guidance does not state that climbing is allowed (yoga is apparently) it also doesn't specifically state it isn't.

You can go out more than once a day and you can go out for more than an hour.

I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.

Following new guidelines from government and the HSE we have lads out working again, only a few and all thoroughly risk assessed and controlled. We expect the numbers to increase each week with only the issue of accommodating stopping us. Applying what i know re this via work i cant see how going climbing shouldn't be allowed.

We need to be careful that if we apply our own rules to the situation, and act self-righteously, we will get left at the back of the list when it comes to re opening everything up. Talk of all the reasons we cant go, such as touching holds and leaving the virus on them (seems very unlikely to me) could be very counter productive in the long term.
 
And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.

Just posted on a friend's FB about this.


The guidance wording is
''What's likely to be reasonable'':
''Exercise: *Including*: going for a run or cycle or practising yoga. Walking in the countryside or in cities. Attending an allotment.''

etc. etc.

I heard a Mr Jeremy C from Islington was lobbying for the allotment bit to be included..

Then there is a 'Not likely to be reasonable' column. For some sections (such as 'Work' or Driving') this has things listed. For 'Exercise' it is left blank.

Interpretation by police? Run, walk, cycle, yoga (and driving to do all) is 'likely to be reasonable', because the guidance says so.

Interpretation by many climbers and other 'outdoor recreators'? Climbing is (or will soon be) OK (within SD guidelines) because it isn't specifically listed in the 'not likely to be unreasonable' column.

If that's the logic, then it must also be true that other forms of exercise which aren't listed in the 'not likely to be reasonable' column', and which can be enjoyed solo or with your household member (and maintaining 2m SD if other participants are present), are also within the guidelines.
 
So:
parachuting, para-gliding, mountain biking, snooker, archery, badminton, clay pigeon shooting, darts, boxing (with household.. spouse etc.), axe-throwing (Gwynedd residents), sword-fighting (foil, epee and saber), medieval jousting, mountain marathons, motor sport, gymnastics (not synchronised floor routines unless housemate), swimming (not synchronised..etc.), tennis, tug-of-war, truck-pulling, weightlifting, bowling - crown green, ten-pin and boules, cross-country running, race-walking, field athletics events, competitive sheep shearing, sheepdog trials, kayaking, coracle racing, long-boat racing (household crews only), juggling, fire-walking, slacklining, base-jumping, skiing, roller-skiing, roller-blading, skateboarding, roller-skating, ice-skating, snowboarding, wake-boarding, grass-boarding, wind-surfing, surfing, sailing - dinghy class not multihull - unless household crew), geo-caching, orienteering, competitive chainsaw wood-carving, competitive tree-felling, competitive tree-climbing, ninja warrior (wearing gloves), golf.

All on a par with climbing right, because they aren't listed in the 'unlikely to be reasonable' column. Apologies if I missed anyone.

[mrjonathanr]

Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry during Covid 19’ SARS Cov2

You’re welcome 

[SA Chris]

No need to call me a bit of a dick.

In the spirit of pedantry, he didn't call you bit of a dick, he said you were being a bit of a dick.

Former is an insult, the other is observing a ( hopefully temporary) course of action.

[IanP]

while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing 

[IanP]

while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing 

And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms.  Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.

[Will Hunt]

No need to call me a bit of a dick.

In the spirit of pedantry, he didn't call you bit of a dick, he said you were being a bit of a dick.

Former is an insult, the other is observing a ( hopefully temporary) course of action.

Unlikely. It's a congenital affliction.

[gme]

Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.

I did read it all and its the bit at the bottom in black that perturbs me. We (climbers) are making up our own rules that seem to be more stringent than they need to be and getting ourselves all worked up about it. If the rule really is that you can drive somewhere relatively local to exercise, and you can avoid being within 2 m of others i dont see the issue.

I really dont get the contact with holds thing outside. This could surely be covered the same way as opening a door, opening a gate, climbing a stile. Wash your hands after you climb and dont touch your face.

And i really do believe there is no difference in risk to going bouldering to cycling; road or mountain bike.

I think the focus is too much on it being non essential and not actually how much risk there is. If there is little to no risk of transmitting or catching the virus whether is essential or not is irrelevant.

I walk the dog every day from the house cross about 5 stiles and might see a couple of others. All within guidelines but more chance of getting the virus than driving out to a local crag 15 mins away where no one else has been.

[gme]

while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing 

And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms.  Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

[gme]

while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing

Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?

I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing 

And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms.  Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

In addition to that it appears that you can still ride your horse. The horse version of the BMC has said you need to minimize risk but leave the decision as to whether you ride or not up to the individual. i.e Dont do fast galloping and jumping.

[IanP]

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

Interesting , couldn't find any breakdown of stats, type of accident etc - certainly insurance companies don't agree but not sure how much detail info they have to make decisions on. 

You only have to go to Llandegla at the the weekend to see that mountain biking is significantly more dangerous than road biking, the ambulance is there most weekends.  My feeling is that I know a lot more people who have been injured requiring medical treatment climbing (broken ankles, upper body inuries, head injuries etc) than road biking, but as you say this just may be my perception.   And on mountain biking (by which I mean trail/lite downhill style) pretty much everybody I've ever biked with as had significant offs involving some sort of medical treatment from stitches right up top days spent in hospital,

[IanP]

And just to repeat I do agree that the risk aspect is a red herring - the main issue is social distancing, if we are allowed to go climbing where can we go that maintains social distancing given that everyone is desperate to get out?

[petejh]

Perception v reality.

ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.

Climb or ride faster is clearly the message here..

[T_B]

@IanP

Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.

So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.

Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.

[IanP]

@IanP

Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.

So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.

Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.

I'm not sure its correct to say that insurance companies don't understand risk, I would imagine their actuaries have much better understanding of the statistics and risk than your average layman, however I agree that they almost certainly don't have a detailed understanding of the relative risks for different aspects of niche activities.   

On the mountain biking anecdotal evidence, that doesn't surprise me at all! 

[T_B]

I’m only talking specifically about travel insurance as that’s what I have direct experience of. If you mean the premiums would relate precisely to where the claims fall, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case bizarrely.