[Wood FT]

Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.

I mean, why dont we all go out there? I could be there in 20 minutes.

Surely that video is trolling. Minus Ten Wall, Raven Tor....

[Fatboyslimfast2]

'Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.'

Interestingly I clocked him on Saturday morning in the Spar at Calver crossroads, so travel from outside to an area then do a little shopping just to spread stuff around a bit more into a small community shop.

[Murph]

I respect that some folk can just walk to a quiet crag. But please dont rub it in. This thing will last as long as people believe in it. Risk a £30 fine for a day out climbing on a quiet crag? Sure. Sign me up. We all have cars we could most of us easily get out. Plenty of roadside lime.

We've established on here that going climbing and not being a numpty isnt very dangerous at all. No worse than cycling for sure. The danger is that the peak district is rammed again and there are dozens of people at curbar and all the "not staying at home"ness that involves.

I will stay in so long as people dont spray the benefits of not staying in.

[Fatboyslimfast2]

Murph I was just voicing how Im feeling, I haven't and Im not going to. The guy in the vid really pissed me off on Saturday as I knew he was going out and I believe he is one of the 2 vans currently in situ under raven tor.
Its not just climbers though, there a van lifer woman and her lapdog residing in the curbar gap lower parking bays for the last 3 weeks. from a sanitation point of view not good whatever your views

[Murph]

Murph I was just voicing how Im feeling....

No, I totally get you fat boy. My rant was meant to no one in particular just putting down how I feel. I'm in totley and can get from front door to trackside in ten minutes.

Surely that video is trolling. Minus Ten Wall, Raven Tor....

Hadnt noticed. Even more angry now.  Mind you, it is a sort of mini minus.

[Will Hunt]

I don't know all the details here. But I'm fairly sure that van life people were told to stay put. So if he was at Raven Tor when it kicked off then he's done the right thing to remain there.
I have no idea who the guy is and I've no idea how this video has been shared. If I upload something to YouTube is that spray? Or is it spray when I post it around social media? The only reason I'm aware of its existence is that Murph has decided to share it here.

Personally, if he lives at the Tor because he's made a lifestyle choice to live in three cubic metres of space and shit in a bucket then I wouldn't begrudge him a few perks.

How weak is people's personal resolve if they see someone else climbing and then cannot help but break the law to drive out of Sheffield to go climbing themselves? "Oh, Officer, I was abiding by the rules, but then I saw a video of somebody walking 20 seconds from their abode to climb some shit limestone and I couldn't cope with not having what they have."

What happens when you guys see somebody with a Ferrari?

[Davo]

I agree putting a vid out there of climbing at the moment seems unwise and I also don’t think the Tor is an appropriate choice of crag. I suspect it would be hard to explain the minimal risk and the exercise involved to a policeman.

However, in all honesty I really don’t have an issue with climbing outside if you can do it without drawing attention to yourself and without driving or breaking social distancing rules. I can’t climb without breaking the travel rules and therefore I can’t climb, however I harbor no bad feelings to anyone that can (apart from raging envy etc). If as a few of you describe you live close to crags and could get out I really don’t see why you don’t just do it on the quiet and enjoy yourself. I go out each day for quite a bit longer than the hour we are supposedly advised to do and sometimes I even go out twice in a day and it was not fully essential (except for my sanity!). However I don’t meet up with anyone and I am fairly certain I am at very low risk of transmission of the virus. I think we all just have to keep within the rules and accept that some people are more fortunate in where they live.

I feel much more aggrieved when I see clearly non essential work such as an extension being finished off by  firms of builders or see housing estates continuing to go up. That makes me feel personally that we are not all in it together and that some industries and businesses have only their own vested self interests at heart.

Dave

[tomtom]

"Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups"

So lets be careful here...

1. Self publicity. Well - its incredibly easy on Youtube to put up a video that is unlisted (its publically viewable - but no-one can find it. A load of mine are (random training /failure stuff I sometimes post on here but dont really want listed for posterity!) and its easy. So on a sliding scale its somewhere from Unwitting publicity >> Spray >> Trolling. (edit - on youtube they've answered  positive comments - so clearly want the stuff out there I guess..)

2. Are they coming from Sheffield or living in a Van. If its from Sheff - then clearly thats against all the 'rules'/'guidlines' whatever. If they are living in the van there because they have no-where else to go - thats different. Or in between - someone who could live at home but has decided fuck it I'm going to live somewhere where I can go climbing. We don't know either.

3. Someone on here will know them. Maybe have a word???



It doesnt take too much snooping to find the above - the name from the youtube channel and sheffield in search turns up a facebook page...

[Murph]

Not sure if you are being deliberately provocative will and just trying to disagree on every point but yes, youtube is "social media".

Insert the word "publicise" for "spray" to make it make sense.

If it was ok for "other people" to own a Ferrari- and I had the means to get one and I wanted to buy one but would risk a £30 fine if caught doing so....then I would buy one and risk the fine. What would you do?

Again though, going out on the quiet from your home I have no qualms with. Just dont go advertising it or we will all want one.

But what are you saying though - should I just pop up to trackside for a quick lap?

Tt - seen yours but the above still stands I reckon. It's good that we are having this discussion. It popped up on my youtube feed cos I was subscribed.

Also, theres a van for sale round the corner from me. Anyone fancy the van life get out of jail free card and go on a 6 month climbing holiday then cool.

And a caveat - I could be wrong about all of this and have no fixed point of view.

[Will Hunt]

Did you say you're 10 mins from Curbar? If you're saying it's a 10 minute walk then that sounds reasonable to me but you'll have to make your own judgement, accounting for all the factors previously raised on the thread.

To take a slightly different example, I have two kids so can't be going on trips abroad with my mates at the moment. That doesn't mean that I ask those whose circumstances do allow them to go to not post about it.

[Murph]

10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

I think the kids example is different from this and I know I'm not going to change your mind... but this form of cant do something I otherwise would is different to injury or personal circumstance. This is hundreds of us electing to not go climbing voluntarily for no actual binding reason. It's not the same as leaving your kids to fend for themselves.

Like dave says he's relaxed about it if you do it "without drawing attention to yourself". I dont think this counts to be honest.

[Will Hunt]

Just to unpack this.

10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

So if you're having to drive there then, no, you can't go - or at least, that is the consensus UKB view. Van man shouldn't be driving to the shops just for a pint of milk. He should be going to the shops as little as possible. That's got nothing to do with his climbing at the Tor. Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar. Driving for food is essential travel, driving to Curbar is clearly non-essential.

I think the kids example is different from this and I know I'm not going to change your mind... but this form of cant do something I otherwise would is different to injury or personal circumstance. This is hundreds of us electing to not go climbing voluntarily for no actual binding reason. It's not the same as leaving your kids to fend for themselves.

I don't think it really matters what the circumstances are. Some people's circumstances preclude them from certain things that others have, whether by choice or because it was imposed upon them. Some people are born with disabilities that mean they will never walk, let alone go climbing. They do not demand that we stop flaunting our fun hobby because they can't do it. In this case, it's wrong to say that we've voluntarily stopped going climbing. We are required by law to not travel for non-essential purposes, and that clearly precludes us from driving to crags.

Like dave says he's relaxed about it if you do it "without drawing attention to yourself". I dont think this counts to be honest.

Posting the video was a dumb move, but that doesn't mean we have to sharpen the pitch forks.

[TobyD]

10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?


Three vans underneath Stanage, it's hard not to feel like these people are just taking the piss.

[shark]

Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!

Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.

If any of the perps are reading this then bear in mind this sort of thing causes long lasting and bitter divisions such as when some climbers joined Newbury bypass protestors in the trees and other climbers were employed to remove them.

[Will Hunt]

10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.

Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?


Three vans underneath Stanage, it's hard not to feel like these people are just taking the piss.

The Stanage people have been discussed on here before. They were waterboarded and they submitted signed statements confirming that they'd been in the Stanage car park when lockdown started and the police specifically told them to stay put.

[tomtom]

I see the police are now using ANPR to track people and call them out for 'unnecessary' journeys...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-fined-for-heading-to-the-beach-during-lockdown-11972845

This starts to make my 'big brother-ometer' twitch...

[Bonjoy]

Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!

Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.

WCJ dale is notoriously difficult access wise. I can think of few less appropriate places climbers (locals or not)could be seen to climb on at this time. Moronic.
I would question the notion that PB knows of every climber within walking distance thought.

[Footwork]

All these climbers suddenly popping up in vans at major crags (which I rarely see in the parking on usual days) - some are quite obviously taking the piss.

If they can live in their van and have to keep driving to a shop for a pint of milk, why don't they just park up closer to the shop? Plenty of safe and quiet places to park. Yet they keep going back to the climbing because they've consciously made the decision that they want to go climbing - which they have driven to go and do.

The argument "oh we were here before lockdown" falls away. It's just selfishness.

[Nigel]

Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar.

You obviously don't know Calver Spar - it makes Waitrose look like Netto. Milk is probably £10 a pint.

[spidermonkey09]

All these climbers suddenly popping up in vans at major crags (which I rarely see in the parking on usual days) - some are quite obviously taking the piss.

If they can live in their van and have to keep driving to a shop for a pint of milk, why don't they just park up closer to the shop? Plenty of safe and quiet places to park. Yet they keep going back to the climbing because they've consciously made the decision that they want to go climbing - which they have driven to go and do.

The argument "oh we were here before lockdown" falls away. It's just selfishness.

This. Its selfish bellendry.

[Paul B]

just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.

...and here's me thinking I'd get to avoid work today by discussing the impact (if any) I'm having on R with Barrows.

 

[Murph]

Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?

It's about 5 minutes to tideswell coop and 15 to curbar spar. That's what I meant.

Just to unpack this.
....
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar. Driving for food is essential travel, driving to Curbar is clearly non-essential.

Co op is cheaper than spar. And closer. So at least 10 minutes each way of that essential travel is not essential.

Anyway this has all become a bit personal I suppose. I posted in haste this morning and I'm finding the self imposed lockdown annoying for all the reasons people have articulated. But someone posting their lockdown sends on social media is being v public about it and attracting attention.

I am glad we dont live in a draconian state and police by consent etc. But anyone enjoying a climb at the moment at what would otherwise be a busy crag is able to do it only because 100 of us from sheffield arent doing likewise.

This is not like being born with a disability Will but I've made my case.

[shark]

Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar.

You obviously don't know Calver Spar - it makes Waitrose look like Netto. Milk is probably £10 a pint.

And comes from solid gold taps ;-)

[abarro81]

just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.

...and here's me thinking I'd get to avoid work today by discussing the impact (if any) I'm having on R with Barrows.

 

Was that a prod at me to respond to your earlier post? There seem to be two arguments here - travel and SD.

Some cyclists have been saying it's ok to cycle because they don't have to travel to do it; my retort was those stats that demonstrate that this argument probably doesn't stand up to scrutiny - travoke via cycling is probably more dangerous per km than by car.

On the SD argument it clearly requires application of sense in any activity - shopping, walking, running, cycling, anything else. I don't think the "don't do it unless everyone else could also do it" arguement clearly separates most activities well here - it wouldn't be ok if everyone walked up and down their street at 1pm for an hour because you couldn't observe SD. So we're back to illogical rules, or locking everything down, or focusing on SD rather than arbitrary distinctions between activities e.g. cycling valid but forward rolls and yoga not valid. I don't like things that don't make sense, so IMO it's better to lock everything down OR focus on SD.

P.s. I'm sure you're not increasing R much but neither would Bonjoy increase it much by driving to an obscure undocumented boulder 15min drive from his house. Once again, for the fuckers that don't read the earlier posts, I'm not arguing that he should do that, and I'm not saying I wouldn't rinse the rules for all they're worth if I were a cyclist, I'm just pointing out that I think the rules, and their enforcement, are based on bollocks.

P.p.s. the inconsistencies (as I see them) makes me less likely to listen to the judgement of the ukb hive mind, and the general FB pitchfork fuckers, on when it's acceptable to start climbing again as restrictions are eased.

[Will Hunt]

I'm not here to argue whether van lifers should live in the streets around supermarkets (but if I had to, I'd point out that that would be moving a potentially asymptomatic person from one community to another where they previously hadn't been living - increased transmission risk, especially because the impact of their lack of sanitation will be exacerbated by being in an urban area). I just think it's mad that people are losing their minds to the point that they see a bloke walk 20 seconds to climb some choss (which he is uniquely placed to know whether someone has climbed there in the last week or not) and they then need to start discussing exactly where he's been shopping and asking why he hasn't gone out of his way to make his circumstances as privatious as possible.

NSFW  rant that makes no sense:

This sort of attitude is why I haven't posted about my own personal circumstances on the "positive things that happen" thread. I can see lots of positives in my own life (maybe I'm personally disposed towards seeing the positives and not dwelling on the negative?), but if I share that positivity then people who aren't having a great time are going to get very upset. Likewise, I started posting board videos on Instagram because people were getting very psyched about training and sharing training psyche at the start. It seems that has now eroded away and people are probably just going to get very angry at me for my selfish bellendry. After all - a wall is a luxury product. There must be close to £1k's worth of wood, fixings, and holds on there now. You need some money and you need some space - not everyone is so fortunate.