[Davo]

Personally I really can see little issue with someone going climbing locally in an isolated little spot by themselves if they can walk there and observe social distancing. I was fairly uneasy about the blanket ban at the time and I do think a more nuanced approach would be better if difficult to decide on what is okay and not.

[Will Hunt]

The solidarity argument is clearly bogus. In that case, nobody with a board or fingerboard or TRX or pull up bar or Powerball or anything should be using it because there are some who haven't got one.

[Davo]

Certainly if I lived within walking distance of a quiet out if the way bouldering crag I would definitely be there. Probably wouldn’t post it on Facebook etc but really can’t see an issue if it’s on the quiet

[spidermonkey09]

The solidarity argument is clearly bogus. In that case, nobody with a board or fingerboard or TRX or pull up bar or Powerball or anything should be using it because there are some who haven't got one.

Dont agree with that. Fingerboards are not a community resource in the way that crags are. Not to mention that anyone can buy one. I cant order a crag to my front door!

I dont think the solidarity point is all that relevant anyway because as Stu has said, there arent *that* many people who fit the profile of having a very quiet crag nearby where they are guaranteed to be alone. If you're lucky enough to be in that position then i think the consensus is feel free if you're happy with it, no?

[Paul B]

People are  happy to take in to account circumstances for running and cycling. Ie "just went for a run and barely saw a soul, but then I live on Unst".

I'm going to point back at this post by Stu:

To be clearer. If we could all go bouldering without travelling to do so, and if we could be confident of being the only people at the crag, I’d be pretty happy about everyone climbing. I reckon the minor transmission risk of other people using the holds before would easily be handled with hand wipes.

The problem is that isn’t possible. Both the IFs in the paragraph fail if any number of us head out.

The same simply isn’t true of road cyclists, they can stay well isolated and don’t need to travel to bike. More power to them I say, though I can understand it sticking in people’s throats that someone else gets to do their hobby and we don’t.

Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)

and this from British Cycling:

The decision has been taken based on Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s caution against unnecessary travel and contact with others, to take the necessary steps to protect the health and wellbeing of riders, officials, volunteers and spectators, and alleviate the risk of an additional burden on the emergency services at what is a hugely testing time.

Source: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200317-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-has-suspended-all-of-its-sanctioned--cycling-activities--initially-until-April-30--0

Road.cc have also been running articles that can be paraphrased as "the weather looks nice this weekend, don't be a dickhead". The circumstances you reference apply to the majority, don't they*?

It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.

*if the point being made is that within cities, it's a bit farcical I've genuinely missed that until now and I could understand that causing frustration.

Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds.

Conversely, within the scope of Yorks. sportclimbing, where Parish Councils may not entirely like climbers, I think as a group we're looking fairly well behaved aren't we?

I get your concerns about how we begin to return to normality (and the added frustration that you venture to places most others don't) and I suspect something along the lines of the TPTB releasing wishy relaxation statements and those that fit the 'Pete +1' demographic starting to venture out, with both sides getting it wrong to a certain degree (pitchfork/keyboard warriors and climbers alike). I'd be interested to know how you feel it may be best handled?

If it didn't make me angry and depressed we could have a "bringing out the worst in people" thread.

A link would suffice. I also couldn't find the LRR post (perhaps I missed it in the 138 replies or maybe it's been deleted?) referenced earlier to see if it was genuine or like most on there, not entirely serious!

[Will Hunt]

For LRR, I'm not sure if anyone did make a report, but I definitely saw someone saying to send the photo to the police.

For the Canal and River Trust it is buried in replies to comments on one of their Facebook posts. The blue ticked profile asked witnesses to report fishing on the canal to the police and EA.

[gme]

Just nipped out for a bit of a walk. https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1249657562057891845?s=21

[tomtom]

Just nipped out for a bit of a walk. https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1249657562057891845?s=21

To save people clicking

Walkers have been urged not to take to the hills during the lockdown after 18 paramedics and mountain rescuers were required to help a woman who sustained a leg injury on moorland over the Easter weekend.

The woman was treated at the scene at Blackstone Edge near Littleborough in Greater Manchester on Saturday night during an operation that lasted for three hours and 15 minutes.

Oldham mountain rescue team (OMRT) said its volunteers had been asked by North West ambulance service to assist after the walker sustained a lower leg injury while “out enjoying the Easter sun”.

She was carried by stretcher to the team’s Land Rover and driven to a roadside where she was transferred to an ambulance.

The parallel to what could happen to anyone out bouldering is obvious... etc.. etc.. etc..

[T_B]

As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.

Except that doesn’t fit the media’s narrative.

[TobyD]

I'm not sure arguing the toss about everything really helps anyone, climbing is clearly not ok if you're driving to it for the moment. If you can walk somewhere from home to boulder where you're guaranteed not to see a soul, great, but probably best not to tell the thousands of people who that will irritate and tempt those with fewer morals to just drive a short distance or some such excuse.

Tom I've been out on my bike a few times recently and not noticed anything bonanza like. There are probably more cyclists than cars out in Derbyshire but that's not saying much. Most of the cars I saw the other day were police or rangers checking car parks.

[SA Chris]

As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.

Climbers out climbing are probably more safe than climbers building woodies.

[Oldmanmatt]

On Woodies, you meant on Woodies.

I just had to be carried away from training, by my 14 year old daughter, because something hamstringy went “sclurrop-pop”, I went “glurrr-awww-ffuuucck-cant-buggery-shit”, whilst heel hooking.

One hand typing whilst icepack holding, right now.

Not a fucking chance I could have walked off any crag like this.

PS:
My kids have a very wide vocabulary.

[Oldmanmatt]

Also, the argument is moving beyond any one “community”.

There are plenty of Pitchfork wielders prepared to point their ire at people exercising, regardless of Gov guidelines..,

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/ridiculous-sign-trying-stop-cyclists-18084476

[petejh]

That's the training gods striking you down for heel-hooking on a board.

[T_B]

As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.

Climbers out climbing are probably more safe than climbers building woodies.

Exactly. I know this is a bouldering forum but some people’s attitude to risk on here strikes me as very odd. I guess you can’t untangle it from the whole ‘weirdness’ of this Lockdown situation.

[abarro81]

I'm not sure arguing the toss about everything really helps anyone, climbing is clearly not ok if you're driving to it for the moment.

None of any of the discussion on any of this help anyone really, I just like poking holes in things to see how much they stand up to scrutiny. Right now I don't think that cyclists' arguments that cycling is particularly morally/logically acceptable vs bouldering and travel stand up to much scrutiny.

Here's 5 min of stats research on hospital admissions*:
- Incidents involving motorised transport (excl. trains) caused ~2.8% of hospital admissions
- Incidents involving cars, pick-ups or vans caused ~2.0% of hospital admissions
- Incidents involving cyclists caused ~1.2% of hospital admissions (some overlap with the above obviously)
- For cyclists, ~16% of admissions were due to collision with motorised vehicles, ~9% due to collisions with other stuff, ~ 65% "noncollision transport accident", ~9% unknown cause.

Clearly some of those noncollision accidents may be attributable to drivers of motorised vehicles but where the cyclist bailed out into the verge etc - I guess that would be recorded in this category. At a rough guess, let's assign unknown and noncollision in proportion with the other categories' existing data, which would imply as a rough guess that ~ 64% involve motorised vehicles and ~34% don't. From my earlier source, cycling is ~15-40x more dangerous per km than car driving. Accounting for the fact that only 34% of accidents can count as the rest involve cars (based on our above est), this would make cycling ~5-14x more dangerous than driving per km. Even if you only take the 16% that are definitely** not involving cars, then you still get 2.4-6.4x more dangerous per km.

So if a 50km bike ride is ok, that would make a 120-320km round trip drive acceptable at minimum. You'd need to adjust for risk of injury during the activity at the other end, and long distances obvs have other issues around fuelling as discussed; also I didn't try to introduce a metric for severity of injury which may or may not affect the results.

Clearly this is a VERY rough few numbers I put together, to demo that "All of this is just internal risk assessments, usually based on no evidence", as I said 6 pages back. I'm not really arguing that we should be able to drive to climbing, or that cyclists should stop (I would keep doing it if it were what I'm into), just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.




*Taken from my analysis of this source, with the caveat that I know f all about what I'm looking at so may have made errors: https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/hospital-admitted-patient-care-activity/2017-18
-
**A car could have been involved, but not in the collision itself, but I'm just working with the categories available.

[Ru]

Collectively, climbers can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday, imagine the chaos if all climbers were allowed to go climbing by car as long as they were sensible. At least with cycling they keep moving.

[IanP]

Collectively, climbers can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday, imagine the chaos if all climbers were allowed to go climbing by car as long as they were sensible. At least with cycling they keep moving.

Agreed, the risk aspect is nowhere near the main factor here.  The issue with climbing is similar to that with sunbathing in parks - for one couple to go to sun bathe in a quiet park looks fine, but obviously hundreds of other people also want to do the same and then social distancing is out of the window.   

Cycling is naturally pretty socially distanced, there's thousands of miles of roads out there - don't think this justifies people going for long distance rides across the peak district etc.

[SA Chris]

Thing is, I see the same discussions going on online everywhere; mountain bikers, road bikers, cyclists, hill runners, surfers, back-country skiers, paddleboarders. I'm sure if I looked, the same would be said by golfers, fishermen, birdwatchers, scuba divers, kite surfers, bog snorkellers, mud wrestlers all of whom believe that at a certain level what they are doing is safer than cycling.

Government statement would eventually end up like "what have the Romans done for us".

"You can go out for a run, walk or cycle from your home once a day, except if you go lowball bouldering, fishing from beach above high tide mark, surfing in waves no more than 3 feet, kiteboarding in less than 5 knots" etc etc

[Bonjoy]

Collectively, the Raven Tor demographic can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday...

Fixed that for you.

[Ru]

Collectively, the Raven Tor demographic can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday...

Fixed that for you.

That's my point. Amongst the many sensible climbers there will always be a sizeable minority that don't act sensibly. And they are not confined just to those that go to the tor.

[Bonjoy]

It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.

*if the point being made is that within cities, it's a bit farcical I've genuinely missed that until now and I could understand that causing frustration.

Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds.

Conversely, within the scope of Yorks. sportclimbing, where Parish Councils may not entirely like climbers, I think as a group we're looking fairly well behaved aren't we?

I get your concerns about how we begin to return to normality (and the added frustration that you venture to places most others don't) and I suspect something along the lines of the TPTB releasing wishy relaxation statements and those that fit the 'Pete +1' demographic starting to venture out, with both sides getting it wrong to a certain degree (pitchfork/keyboard warriors and climbers alike). I'd be interested to know how you feel it may be best

Baslow rd is one of the main exit points from the city into the Peak. It goes through Totley where I live which is the last urban area before open moors.
It's pretty busy with cyclists. Quite a few don't look like regular cyclists to put it politely. Good on them for getting some exercise, but I'd dispute they represent a lower risk of an emergency services call out than our hypothetical lowball traversist.
General sour grapes aside, my beef is not with cycling, it's as Barrow's said, with cyclists arguing it's based on intrinsic lower risk, rather than arbitrary political factors.
I totally agree that sport crags, especially high profile ones in full public view had to be closed, and seen to be done so swiftly and willingly by climbers. Not least because they quite probably do represent a significant risk of CV spread. And it's a good look that we did that.
How to unwind the lockdown? It's a big question, but I might as well throw a few thought t it.I think compared to indoor sports, office jobs, public transport, school, pubs, cinemas etc, outdoor activities  are mostly lower/low risk and hence should be the first areas of life to be derestricted. This would also be a huge and much needed physical and mental health boost to a lockdown weary populace.
I think mask wearing should be compulsory when outside the home until it is clear the CV waves/risk has passed. Home made is fine.
Even after travel is allowed and currently closed areas are opened, social distancing measures should be maintained for an indefinite period.

Or more radically, as I suggested a while back - If overcrowding is a major concern, why not allocate people days when they are free to travel to the countryside? Either you choose, or are allocated two days of the week (obviously keyworker families get sat-sun). For people on furlough the weekend is pretty meaningless at the moment, especially with kids not at school.
Another radical thought, suspend trespass laws and treat all land (with a few basic rules and exceptions) as access land.
Reduce car park capacity, cone off every other bay at big carparks.
Encourage/insist people to use this app which alerts the user to the proximity of possibly infectious  individuals. Caveat: I know little of the detail regards this, either how effective it is, or what downsides are attached.
That's a start anyway.

[Paul B]

For LRR, I'm not sure if anyone did make a report, but I definitely saw someone saying to send the photo to the police.

For the Canal and River Trust it is buried in replies to comments on one of their Facebook posts. The blue ticked profile asked witnesses to report fishing on the canal to the police and EA.

Come on Will, if Mr. J. Worth is giving an asset owner a tough time on social media about another member of the public doing something they feel they oughtn't under the new guidance/laws what do you expect the employee to do (in the context of the various policies and articles I've linked)? Perhaps respond with a tumbleweed GIF  ? Or ask them if they've not got anything better to worry about? Most likely they're going to ask them to take it up with the correct body if they feel so inclined.

I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.

You're focusing on one aspect (risk) and missing the point that people out on their bikes are taking a form of exercise which allows for SD, whereas it's unlikely many people will be getting in their car to drive solely in a loop (without leaving said vehicle) before returning home (and of course that driving in a loop has very little exercise value unless it's sat in the passenger seat of Shark's car where the elevated heart rate might earn you a few calories).

With respect to another part of your post, and in the hope that it'll be a lighthearted look into a moment of my own stupidity for everyone to chuckle at, I got it really wrong a year or so ago having taken insufficient food on a ride, I felt like utter shit nearing the end where there's a steep downhill, a slight bend and then a steep uphill (high hedges throughout). I was determined not to need to pedal any more than necessary and tucked onto my frame like a knob and aimed to cut the bend for my own gain only to find out there was a combine harvester coming and I had to abandon onto the verge/into a hedge. I really should've learnt by now (and it's amazing how poor decision making can get when hungry/tired)! When I got home I had to sit on the floor of the bath running hot water over my legs whilst my long suffering wife fed me crisps. Of course she'd told me I had insufficient food before leaving the house!

Bonjoy - you've posted whilst I was typing; I'll reply tomorrow!

[Murph]

Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.

I mean, why dont we all go out there? I could be there in 20 minutes.

[Fatboyslimfast2]

I can see 2 crags from my house, I can walk to a limestone one in 5 mins and a grit one in 25......interestingly even if I had the inclination I couldn't currently get a rock boot on seeing as I smashed my foot into the step ladder Im using to redecorate on the landing and judging by colour and shape broke my toe. Disinclined obvs to go to a and e Ive spent last 2 days hobbling around.  I didn't set out to have an accident, it was in my home so no one saw and I didn't need help.
I will be honest, a few weeks ago I was fairly hardline and Ive stayed away, as time has gone on Im wavering as to whether local (for me that is VERY important) low ball low risk stuff would be ok?  does that just open the gates and we would see people winging off the top crescent arete and having to be lifted off the crag as per normal bank holiday?
Like all things at this time its difficult !!