[Bonjoy]

The students aren't there because they need to be there to learn (mostly). They're there because it justifies 9 grand's worth of fees and to keep the accommodation services viable. Or at least, that's what I glean from TT's post from a couple of weeks ago.

Sorry if the sarcasm in my last sentence was not clear - of course they knew this would happen, I just doubt they cared! Students are an easy target - either don't vote / vote labour, easily scapegoated as young and stupid (especially with the connivance of the UK media usual suspects), and pre-ghettoised for an easy lockdown.

Your view above is my view too - my partner is a lecturer at Hallam so I am aware that they are now a property management company with a learning subsidiary. My reference to a fair solution being available over summer is what MrJR mentions - gov support for uni's to allow them to lower / abolish fees and do online only i.e. honest, transparent, fair. Now that uni's are marketised all it took was for one to "go over the top" and offer some token face-to-face teaching and then they all did. Which means everyone back. Obviously they knew all along they would be offering 90-100% online anyway, which I can guarantee you from conversations with students I know was not obvious to them in all cases. So not transparent, not fair, plus costly and dangerous for the students. Into the bargain they'll potentially get the blame for student cities going into lockdown in the future. If I was a student I would be miffed to put it mildly. Another fine mess...

Pretty scandalous. I hope a bunch of them sue their Unis and win. From the outside it looks very much like they've been cynically mis-sold, misled, and put at risk.

[Paul B]

Take a look at the Good Law Project Bonjoy. I think this is happening.

[tomtom]

For many of the Universities it was a case of full fees or go bust.

[SA Chris]

https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

not sure if everyone knows about this.

[mrjonathanr]

Cheers

[Nigel]

We have heard nothing from Michelle Donelan either, it’s her brief.

We have now Jr - she just announced a helpline for students.  Sure that'll sort it.

[Bonjoy]

For many of the Universities it was a case of full fees or go bust.

I can believe it. I'd still sue. I wouldn't appreciate being thrown under the bus regardless of how many jobs or what business it rescued.

[Oldmanmatt]

For many of the Universities it was a case of full fees or go bust.

I can believe it. I'd still sue. I wouldn't appreciate being thrown under the bus regardless of how many jobs or what business it rescued.

Ritual sacrifice of the young, is a long standing human tradition and carping about it is the action of a “Lefty Lawyer” or “Do Gooder” type.
I do hope you’re not taking THAT  sort of line.

Just think of the poor people in charge of selecting the offerings, it’s so hard to find a virgin these days.

[Nigel]

For many of the Universities it was a case of full fees or go bust.

I think you missed a fairly obvious option. Presumably when you attended uni they were neither bust, nor did you pay fees?

[tomtom]

Edit - thought I’d posted this an hour ago but it didn’t...

Meant for Bonjoy

I think if you’re stuck kettled up in a badly designed / managed / cramped hall of residence with no care from the university then you’re right.


But that’s not the case everywhere. Two other arguments in play - first would students actually be any better off at home studying (many wouldn’t) or at home looking for a job instead? Second whilst I disagree with the fees system - they are more akin to a graduate tax than a loan - with a large percentage of students never paying them back.

[tomtom]

For many of the Universities it was a case of full fees or go bust.

I think you missed a fairly obvious option. Presumably when you attended uni they were neither bust, nor did you pay fees?

Rather than the fee structure (that as above I’d don’t agree with) I think the biggest problem for HE is competition.

All HE institutes used to have caps on numbers for subjects - so Bristol, Exeter Leeds, Manchester etc.. were limited. With new fees and ‘competition’ universities as above could fill their boots (and more!) leaving other institutions in trouble.

This means you then also have to provide for a university going bust - which hasn’t happened yet but will.

If you go back to some form of quota then things are much more manageable from a running a university point of view.

[James Malloch]

This means you then also have to provide for a university going bust - which hasn’t happened yet but will.

I worked in a Business Support Unit in a bank (dealing with customers who were struggling) about 5 years ago. It was full of farms, football clubs and universities. I’m surprised we’ve not seen failures yet!

[tomtom]

I believe the guidelines and procedures for transferring students from a bankrupt university wrrr only drawn up 3-4 years ago.

[Nigel]

Would agree with that assessment TT. The summer was a missed opportunity to do something creative in my opinion, but there you go, its no surprise!

Compehensive summary of all of the above in the NYT of all places - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/world/europe/virus-UK-universities.html

[James Malloch]

Latest Test & trace numbers.

21,268 positive tests referred.
78% reached.
75% of their contacts reached.
Worked out at 4.7 contacts per positive person reached.
If you extrapolate that number to the 22% of positive cases which weren't reached you're left with 42% of close contacts being missed.

World beating?

Latest Test & trace numbers.

34,494 positive tests referred.
74% reached.
82% of their contacts reached.
Worked out at 3.94 contacts per positive person reached.
If you extrapolate that number to the 26% of positive cases which weren't reached you're left with 39% of close contacts being missed.

So compared to 2 weeks ago, based on today's report we are:

1) referring more positive cases (62% more)
2) getting in touch with less of them (4% less as a percentage)
3) reaching more of their contacts as a percentage
4) "missing" less as a percentage when you extrapolate for positive cases who weren't reached.

But given the 62% increase in cases referred we're probably missing a lot more close contacts compared to 2 week ago, in terms of actual numbers.

And we didn't contact 22% of positive cases 2 weeks ago (4,700 people) and this report says we now didn't contact 26% (9,000 people)

It feels like a very strict lockdown to get numbers at a manageable level would be the best approach at the moment. Then maybe Test & Trace and the new app might could do their job properly...

[tomtom]

Indeed - but I suspect we’ll end up with a shade between Sweden and lockdown.

What will trigger the full lockdown is if hospitals / icu can’t cope.

[Oldmanmatt]

Indeed - but I suspect we’ll end up with a shade between Sweden and lockdown.

What will trigger the full lockdown is if hospitals / icu can’t cope.

You mean “about three weeks from now”, right?

[Nigel]

Latest Test & trace numbers.

34,494 positive tests referred.
74% reached.
82% of their contacts reached.
Worked out at 3.94 contacts per positive person reached.
If you extrapolate that number to the 26% of positive cases which weren't reached you're left with 39% of close contacts being missed.

Thanks James, very interesting. It should be noted that this is for England only isn't it? I.e. the privatised Serco system. Over the completed weeks between start of August and end of Sept in Scotland the NHS run Test and Protect system has closed out contact tracing on 97% of all positive cases. Yes, 97% on average! Note that Serco are nowhere near this system, its run by the NHS and local authorities as far as I am aware. If you want the raw figures they are on page 10 of this Scotgov document: https://beta.isdscotland.org/media/5967/20-10-07-covid19-publication_report.pdf . £12 billion well spent?

[Fultonius]

Long Covid?

I think a dose of Covid back in March. Quite mild, but was in close contact with people form work who had it. Persistent cough, some days of flu-like symptoms etc. All cleared up bar some "covid toe" a few weeks later.

Around 3 weeks ago I started getting persistent fatigue, struggling to get out of bed and just not quite feeling 100% cognitively. I had a week off, climbing in fairhead and struggled to get motivated. I was putting it down to be a bit overworked, maybe a bit depressed or generally under the weather but had a nice week anyway. Thought maybe the 2-3 beers in the evening were not helping, so pretty much stopped. Sometimes having a single beer was giving me a headache (I fluctuate between not drinking much and having a beer or two a night, but never have had consistent hangovers from 2 beers!) Stopping has had very little impact other than not throwing another log on the fire, so to speak.

I then had a week back at work, feeling slow and persistent "brain fog". Maybe a few little coughs here and there, but really nothing in the way of flu symptoms. Discussed going to the doctor to see about counselling or something (had some mil-moderate depression and anxiety issues of the last few years since my dad passed away, and GF thought that the whole shit life situation we're all going through was taking it's toll - which it is/could be the issue...)

Last week we were off in the van for a week (just the way the holidays worked out this year) and just took it easy, but still was having focus/mood issues, struggling to recall names, facts, formulate thoughts etc. Noticed I had a bit of "COVID-toe again when taking of climbing shoes, same foot, same 3 toes) My brain is usually a bundle of energy, with a million thoughts all at once. Now it's like wading through treacle...

This week, back at work, more fog. Any long period of sustained concentration fills my brain up with "fog" and I just need to step away and shut my eyes a while.

Got a COVID drive though booked in 45 mins, so I'll see what that says. Pretty sure it'll be -ve but best ruling it out.

Somewhat regretting my slight blase attitude early on - seems like severity of initial symptoms (even if my issues are unrelated...) is not well ocrrelated with ongoing issues. In fact, younger, fitter healthier people seem to be getting hit quite bad by the lower-grade chronic issues.

[James Malloch]

Long Covid?

I think a dose of Covid back in March. Quite mild, but was in close contact with people form work who had it. Persistent cough, some days of flu-like symptoms etc. All cleared up bar some "covid toe" a few weeks later.

Around 3 weeks ago I started getting persistent fatigue, struggling to get out of bed and just not quite feeling 100% cognitively. I had a week off, climbing in fairhead and struggled to get motivated. I was putting it down to be a bit overworked, maybe a bit depressed or generally under the weather but had a nice week anyway. Thought maybe the 2-3 beers in the evening were not helping, so pretty much stopped. Sometimes having a single beer was giving me a headache (I fluctuate between not drinking much and having a beer or two a night, but never have had consistent hangovers from 2 beers!) Stopping has had very little impact other than not throwing another log on the fire, so to speak.

I then had a week back at work, feeling slow and persistent "brain fog". Maybe a few little coughs here and there, but really nothing in the way of flu symptoms. Discussed going to the doctor to see about counselling or something (had some mil-moderate depression and anxiety issues of the last few years since my dad passed away, and GF thought that the whole shit life situation we're all going through was taking it's toll - which it is/could be the issue...)

Last week we were off in the van for a week (just the way the holidays worked out this year) and just took it easy, but still was having focus/mood issues, struggling to recall names, facts, formulate thoughts etc. Noticed I had a bit of "COVID-toe again when taking of climbing shoes, same foot, same 3 toes) My brain is usually a bundle of energy, with a million thoughts all at once. Now it's like wading through treacle...

This week, back at work, more fog. Any long period of sustained concentration fills my brain up with "fog" and I just need to step away and shut my eyes a while.

Got a COVID drive though booked in 45 mins, so I'll see what that says. Pretty sure it'll be -ve but best ruling it out.

Somewhat regretting my slight blase attitude early on - seems like severity of initial symptoms (even if my issues are unrelated...) is not well ocrrelated with ongoing issues. In fact, younger, fitter healthier people seem to be getting hit quite bad by the lower-grade chronic issues.

That sounds real crap, hope you start to do better soon.

Would it be worth booking a private antibody test? I’ve see some advertised for around £100.

Whilst they’re not 100% accurate, if it came back positive you might at least have a reason for why you’re feeling like this.

If it’s negative you would still be in the dark though I guess.

[James Malloch]

Latest Test & trace numbers.

34,494 positive tests referred.
74% reached.
82% of their contacts reached.
Worked out at 3.94 contacts per positive person reached.
If you extrapolate that number to the 26% of positive cases which weren't reached you're left with 39% of close contacts being missed.

Thanks James, very interesting. It should be noted that this is for England only isn't it? I.e. the privatised Serco system. Over the completed weeks between start of August and end of Sept in Scotland the NHS run Test and Protect system has closed out contact tracing on 97% of all positive cases. Yes, 97% on average! Note that Serco are nowhere near this system, its run by the NHS and local authorities as far as I am aware. If you want the raw figures they are on page 10 of this Scotgov document: https://beta.isdscotland.org/media/5967/20-10-07-covid19-publication_report.pdf . £12 billion well spent?

I just checked and you're right - England only.

It does feel like it isn't working, though in reality I don't know what to compare it to.

The Scotland one is performing far better, but it does have significantly fewer cases to get through. But I guess if you look back at past reports for England (I'm not sure how to get them) they must have had a time with cases were much lower and many people were still being missed then.

It does feel like there should be penalties for consistently missing targets though!

[tomtom]

Thats shite fultonious. I recon there will be a load more cases like yours coming through in the next few years.

RE antibody test - one way to get one is to volunteer for the blood plasma trial (where the NHS wants blood from people who’ve had it to make concentrated antibody treatment for those in ICU). A friend who was fairly sure had it went for this - and they tested him (he had had it) but his antibody levels were not high enough for him to give blood. Obvs - this is wasting resources if you don’t want to give your blood - but if you don;t mind its a good way....

[nai]

It does feel like there should be penalties for consistently missing targets though!

They'll have to make an even bigger donation to get the next contract gifted to them without tender

[tomtom]

I heard on the radio just now (can’t find it online) that there is a Greater manchester NHS memo thats been leaked to the MEN that says at present rates we’ll be at the peak rate of hospital admissions here in Manchester by the end of the month.

[galpinos]

I heard on the radio just now (can’t find it online) that there is a Greater manchester NHS memo thats been leaked to the MEN that says at present rates we’ll be at the peak rate of hospital admissions here in Manchester by the end of the month.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-covid-hospital-admissions-19064935