[Offwidth]

Nicola Sturgeon said their track and trace (which seems to work a hell of a lot better than the centralised English version) evidenced spread in households. It's much easier to behave badly on social distancing in private than in public, and indoor spread is much higher risk than outdoor. It's especially depressing in the face of the huge amount of evidence to see public parks being closed again in Europe.

[gme]

We cannot meet other households inside, but we can meet them in "catering" as long as we follow the guidelines (i.e. maintain 2m distance)....no idea how that really constitutes a "meeting" at all, I suppose you can sit at opposite ends of a big table. Why this is any different from meeting at home I have no idea.

Or the cynic in me says that the want to keep hospitality business getting some income, rather than more cash going to supermarkets on cheap booze for parties.

Why does this always get portrayed as a bad thing on here. I think its vitally important we try everything we can to get the countries economy going and support businesses, especially the smaller independents who are really on there arses at the minute.

Why not meet someone at a pub/cafe/restaurant instead of your house, everyone is a winner.

[galpinos]

Why not meet someone at a pub/cafe/restaurant instead of your house, everyone is a winner.

Because in Manchester, it is against the guidelines (though not against the law).

[Paul B]

I'd find it far easier making such a decision if the evidence to support it was made available (what do you lot all get up to in your homes? I think I'm missing out!) and there was public trust/confidence in the way Gov. restrictions are being imposed.

The Bolton/Trafford debacle does not suggest they've got a grip (figures showing where things were headed were published by M.E.N. in the preceding days).

[andy popp]

Why does this always get portrayed as a bad thing on here. I think its vitally important we try everything we can to get the countries economy going and support businesses, especially the smaller independents who are really on there arses at the minute.

My son works in hospitality (kitchen manager in a national mid-range chain, so not an independent) and I am certainly very glad he still has a job at this point in time. If it can be done, then I agree it should be. Caveat; I struggle to get a really clear sense of exactly what things are like in the UK.

[tomtom]

Why not meet someone at a pub/cafe/restaurant instead of your house, everyone is a winner.

Because in Manchester, it is against the guidelines (though not against the law).

Except it is allowed. If you sit at separate tables. That could be c.1m apart...

It is a mess....

[SA Chris]

Wife met friends for coffee last Sunday, there were 5 of them at a table, if they added the 6th (who didn't pitch) they would have had to split to 2 tables.

Mess indeed.

[galpinos]

Why not meet someone at a pub/cafe/restaurant instead of your house, everyone is a winner.

Because in Manchester, it is against the guidelines (though not against the law).

Except it is allowed. If you sit at separate tables. That could be c.1m apart...

It is a mess....

Obviously you can get round it but the guidance says:

You should not:

socialise with people you do not live with in other indoor public venues – such as pubs, restaurants, cafes, shops, ............ You may attend these venues with people you live with (or are in a support bubble with), but should avoid interaction with individuals or groups from other households.

which means don't book a table next to friends as that's obviously taking the piss.

The problem is, as you rightly point out, the rules seem unfair/inconsistent/poorly thought out, the government don't seem to be on the ball (as per PaulB's comment, Trafford numbers were going up daily despite numbers of tests going down) and when Boris asked a group of his own MPs how many people could socialise together indoors, less than half knew the correct answer.

[Will Hunt]

Can anyone suggest what the guidance should say?

[petejh]

Crazy talk Will.

[Paul B]

Can anyone suggest what the guidance should say?

Crazy talk Will.

For me it's a matter of communication rather than what's written in the guidance (and I guess, evidence to support what's being said). I can't imagine it's easy to foresee every scenario and legislate for it quickly and without confusion. However, it's not unreasonable to expect that people implementing measures should be required to at least attempt to brief them out to the public. If they want them to succeed I can't really see why you wouldn't do this?

The original measures came in at 10pm the Thur before Eid and were splurged onto Twitter by Matt Hancock. The extended measures had even less of an announcement. The level of understanding in these areas of what is and isn't allowed will be related to how much you've given a sh*t to go looking. You've also got a scenario where the Mayor of Greater Manchester didn't want areas releasing, and the M.E.N. were showing the trend throughout the BH which was undoubtedly going to end up with Bolton/Trafford remaining in the extended measures, yet, this only happened after they'd been released for 12hrs. That does no portray a picture of competence (especially when claiming swift and decisive action after the fact).

Also, as I've said above, the enhanced measures don't seem to be being effective. I'd personally like to understand that more. Do they not work? Do people not know what they are? Do people not care what they are? etc.

To me I find it confusing that I can't socialise with anyone in my house/garden/local park but I can go to work and sit in an office (Victorian terrace conversion) with 6 other people, a very small kitchen etc. Next week I'll be visiting a construction site near to my parents for which I'll have to overnight but I'm only allowed to stay in a hotel, rather than staying with them as usual etc. ; this is starting to make more sense with people saying Sturgeon mentioned that T&T is showing transmission to be greatest within households (I've struggled to find much on this that isn't pay-walled) the inference being that people (as other UKBers have suggested) behave better WRT social distancing in public compared to private.

If the answer is the economy is on its knees and thus any transmission risk at all has to come with an economic benefit then so be it but I'd honestly like someone to be bold enough to stand up and say so.

[Will Hunt]

the inference being that people behave better WRT social distancing in public compared to private.

If the answer is the economy is on its knees and thus any transmission risk at all has to come with an economic benefit

My guess is that these two points explain the current guidance. The second point could be acknowledged by a scientist but not a politician (imagine how the press/opposition would present it even if it is, on balance, the right call).

[Paul B]

Fundamentally I don't agree with your last point; scientists can provide evidence, interpretations and predictions but the difficult decision on economic impact and where to 'allow' that risk is inherently a political decision.

[Paul B]

https://twitter.com/TFitzgeraldMEN/status/1301949454883401730?s=19

 

So the most stringent measures on socialising aren't in the borough with the highest figures  .

From what I understand, from Tues, Pendle still has restrictions on socialising but the remaining closed businesses can open as per the rest of the UK.

I'd take a guess that the socialising restrictions will be dropped around the 11/9 rather than acknowledging they're not really working (/2P).

[tomtom]

I thought this quote summed up well how the Scottish and English governments have handled things

“Thankfully, the Scottish government seems to understand that people want to be at work and don’t need to be encouraged to do such a thing.

“In England it seems like schools are a thinly veiled reason to get people back to work, back to business as usual, even though lockdown has presented all these new opportunities and ways to reset.

[chris j]

Where's the quote from?

Personally I find it baffling that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP administration are lauded like Jacinda Ardern when the outcomes in Scotland have been indistinguishable or at best fractionally better than in England. Truly a triumph of presentation over substance...

As for schools being a 'thinly veiled reason to get people back to work' for those who would like to work but aren't fortunate enough to be able to Zoom to work from home they and other childcare providers are a something of a necessity...

[tomtom]

To me it isn’t baffling it’s obvious.

Dealt the same set of cards - the Scottish govt has played them far more fairly and transparently than the English/Westminster govt. Therefore generating more buy in and trust from the population. Plenty of examples - but early on the Scottish chief health advisor was sacked/resigned for breaching Lockdown rules vs how the English govt dealt with Cummings. The exams U turn was performed first by Scotland then by England - but with a mea culpa from Scotland rather than ‘of course our algorithm is right’ followed by the climb down.

[chris j]

Yes, I agree the ratings for Sturgeon and the Scottish assembly should be a bit better than for Westminster, it's hard to imagine how communication could have been any worse there. I just don't get why they are at record levels and rising, fundamentally they've made the same decisions and mistakes at the same times with the same end results, with other things such as the Alec Salmond case debacle thrown in but nothing seems to leave a mark...

[Oldmanmatt]

Interesting article, though I’ve not dug out the paper yet.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-gps-recorded-three-times-more-suspected-cases-of-covid-19-than-official-figures-12066280

I’m plowing through a mountain of MOD/Civil service contractor procurement guidelines and forms that landed in my inbox at 17:30 last night as the Civil Service COVID dam broke yesterday and the backlog is flooding everybody.
I’m pondering whether this backlog is is going to change the data on the pandemic, given how many depts have been all but shut down since March...?

[Paul B]

Bolton going back into economic lockdown:

https://twitter.com/JenWilliamsMEN/status/1303313921483378688?s=19

"hospitality, bars, takeaways"

I'd take a guess that the socialising restrictions will be dropped around the 11/9 rather than acknowledging they're not really working (/2P).

I was clearly wrong; they seem to need another dose of seeing that local restrictions don't appear to work (or the evidence of home-transmission is VERY convincing).

[Muscle.Coach]

What are people’s opinions on wearing masks in climbing walls? They seem to be wearing them in America yet when I go to the wall here is seems very lax. I’ve tried to wear one but it becomes quite unpleasant after a couple of hours of trying hard.

[Wil]

I have the luxury of being able to go in the middle of the day, as such I'm not too bothered about masks as the wall is quiet. I'm still inclined to avoid the wall in the evenings, I suppose I'd consider a mask if I was there in the evening a lot. It does feel like pissing in the wind if you're the only one though.

[Muscle.Coach]

Pissing in the wind seems a good way of describing it. I’m inclined to not wear masks at all.

[SA Chris]

Guidance here is wear one when entering, and any time when you are not actually climbing, but not sure how you can avoid touching your face after pulling on holds and putting it on and off, so sounds a bit counterproductive

[ali k]

More mixed messaging from the govt this morning. Matt Hancock simultaneously claiming that there is spare testing capacity in the system, yes the pinch point is in the labs, but the public are actually the cause of any problems by getting tested when they’re asymptomatic and aren’t eligible for getting a test.

Just as cold and winter flu season kicks off seems an odd time to be discouraging people from getting a test if they’re worried. But I guess someone has to be blamed.