[Will Hunt]

Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.

Fair enough if that's your idea of highballing (and it's the most ethically sound), but I don't think that's what most people think of when they hear highball. At the top level (e.g. Mellow crew) you always see them trying the moves on a rope. And most people I know who have done something high that's not a path have practiced it on a rope first. Agree that being honest on the style is important.

Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.

Agreed. But highball is both a noun and a verb. When using the verb I'd normally think of ground upping, but not religiously so and ethics don't feature in the equation. For example when we arrived at Desperate Dan, Ian had a rope down it so I had one awful go up on a top rope (terrible warm up on a cold day), but still thought of that as highballing.  In hindsight it was so much easier to commit to the top moves knowing that I had the span to do it off good feet. Shades of grey.

[spidermonkey09]

Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.

I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.

[User deactivated.]

Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.

I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.

I couldn't comprehend of setting up a rope to clean something and then not use it to try the moves!

It's likely that our background in climbing shapes our view. As a boulderer, who uses a fan, ladders, kneepads, antihydral, etc. I equate ground-up to poor tactics! These days, I will sometimes even set up a rope on normal height boulders to work the moves more efficiently. This wastes less energy and skin repeating moves low down. Naturally, when it comes to highballs i'm going to bring the same attitude. The exception would be if I seriously wanted to try and flash something.

[teestub]

Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.

I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.

Your climbing cohort is a lot more ethically pure than mine! Anything remotely high usually involves ladders, ropes, or both.

[Bonjoy]

 
I see the bouldering process as being like sport climbing. Do whatever is most efficient to achieve a clean ascent. It works best when you recognise what the pointless handicaps are.
GU ethics are very much optional extras when you're looking for some added value/longevity.
I often midweek boulder on my own and find it saves a whole lot of pointless faff if I just work things (even little things) on a rope. I think more people would do this if they weren't afraid of funny looks off the conventional masses.

[Will Hunt]

Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.

[Bonjoy]

True, very much 'optional added value' though.

[Dingdong]

Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.

Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ 

I agree with Liam + Jon in that I’d rather be more efficient with goes and not waste myself practicing moves from GU every time.

[spidermonkey09]

Not really. I took a lot of pride in doing something ground up last year when it would have been easy to drop a rope down it first. I haven't been 14 for a long time. Obviously optional but thats the point of the discussion.

[36chambers]

it's all about the journey, not the destination simply having another tick in your logbook

[Fiend]

Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.

Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ 

....says one of the poster boys of the insta-generation 

[Bradders]

Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.

I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.

Your climbing cohort is a lot more ethically pure than mine! Anything remotely high usually involves ladders, ropes, or both.

100%

[Dingdong]

Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.

Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ 

....says one of the poster boys of the insta-generation 

I heard posting on Instagram gives you +80 street credits so I had to do it, no brainer!

Looks like we should split this off into a street credit thread

[Dingdong]

Not really. I took a lot of pride in doing something ground up last year when it would have been easy to drop a rope down it first. I haven't been 14 for a long time. Obviously optional but thats the point of the discussion.

Yeah my point is that it’s fine to not feel pressured into doing something because of street credit, who gives a fuck 

And you also shouldn’t tie your pride/sense of self worth into street credit, you can be proud without caring.

[Ross Barker]

I think the street cred argument is one of those things that will ultimately change no minds and just lead to bickering. So naturally, here's what I think:

Ground-up definitely earns more kudos, though the amount depends on the route. Something where ground-up is the standard, e.g. Tierdrop, Crescent Arete, Big Jim, it's obviously not worth much cred because it's just assumed, and a fall from the last of the hard climbing is often inconsequential. However, something more serious or difficult, e.g. Samson, Mur Gwyn, High Fidelity, loads of mental shit in Northumberland, definitely garners even more respect from me if done in a ground-up fashion.

And even more awe on top of that if its a ground-up FA!

[Footwork]

The only reason I've not done Great Flake yet is because I haven't thrown a rope down it  Jesus I find it hard to commit to the upper half.

I did an FA that you need a few pads and a spot for. I thought it was around font 7B but because it's by Slipstones I gave it E5 6c (font 7B).

[Will Hunt]

Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ 

Weren't you bragging on here recently about doing a 7C?

Some of the best climbing experiences of my life have been onsights or ground-ups of stuff that would have been trivial with prior knowledge. The few E5s I headpointed last year were positively boring by comparison - done deals with the lead being a dull formality.

Maybe it boils down to outlook. If climbing is simply an athletic pursuit then the eventual ascent is all that matters. Thank fuck we still have trad/highballing should we ever want to live a little.

[User deactivated.]

Will, I wonder if you could get your kicks by going up a few grades? A few redpoints i've done recently have been anything but a formality!

Of course, ground up on a given climb gets more street cred because it's harder, but for every climber, the choice is either redpoint at grade X, or ground up at grade X - 2 (for example). The level of challenge via either method is then similar, but the nature of the moves isn't. As a boulderer, the former is more familiar to me, and while I've done plenty of stuff ground up at my limit, my most memorable experiences have been the redpoints at my limit. Mileage varies from person to person.

[scragrock]

Grade this-


Not hard climbing but if you fall from the crux its a hospital job for sure as you miss the pads and the built up platform.

I dialled the moves and cleaned it on a rope, sent it on my own as usual{as i dont like putting the resposibility of dealing with a fall situation on friends}.

[Hoseyb]

I seem to have been doing highballs ever since I started bouldering, probably something to do with my trad adventure background. If my gut thinks I can just go for it / too much faff to rig a rope I've been known to just go for it, brush pirate style between the teeth.
However, for the other 90% of highballs, I'm straight on the top rope and throwing shapes.
When I'm scared things feel harder, and consequently get graded harder. I think this is where highball grading comes from.
It also means when the fa was having a hero moment, everyone else gets sandbagged

[User deactivated.]

Grade this-

3 stars is the most important metric for this.

[scragrock]

Grade this-

3 stars is the most important metric for this.

Correct answer

[SA Chris]

Choose your own poison, but don't disparage the one others choose. Some savour the full "feeling and experience" while they are on the route, others enjoy post success feeling of accomplishment. 

[cheque]

 

[Dingdong]

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