[User deactivated.]

The FA for The Dawning, Mark Radtke, reached out on socials and it was interesting to hear about the history of the route and Hawkcliffe. In relation to the grade he said:

"Everyone at that time was reluctant to award the British tech 6c grade to anything - route wise, so techy stuff topped out at 6b".

And:

"I think your assessment of F7b+ is probably near the mark. Jerry Peel did the second ascent and he was still on fire at that time and thought it was tough."

Relating it to other things at Hawkcliffe, today I did Pigeon E6 6b after 15 mins on a grigri and it was quite a bit easier than the Dawning. After some bouldering I then put a rope down Buzz Caner E7 6c (I see that Jordan Buys went with 6c/7a) and did the boulder in two halves - i'd say that one feels harder than The Dawning overall, but the hardest move on both is similar. The Dawning is therefore surely E6 6c. In new money, 7B might be fair in connies with no danger pay.

Psyched to work on Buzz Caner more, it's a brilliant line!

[Bradders]

I don't know why there's all this debate when we have well designed tool to sort all of these things out, without having to rely on such poxy nonsense as "feelings" and "experience".

https://egrader.co.uk/

[scragrock]

I don't know why there's all this debate when we have well designed tool to sort all of these things out, without having to rely on such poxy nonsense as "feelings" and "experience".

https://egrader.co.uk/

Well, there continues to be debate because this is an on-line forum therefore it must have content to thrive and survive.
In a wider context, what would climbers talk about if there wasnt this stuff to talk about?

For me, as i wizz headlong toward the feiry gates and inevitable oblivion...I give less and less of my time worrying or discussing the intricacies of grades{unless it is done tongue in cheek}.

Funny you mention feelings and experiences as That is what i will spend a lot of time discussing with climbing chums, a bit like trying to describe dancing to an Alien or why a peice of art or music moves you.

Anyway, carry on

[Tom de Gay]

The Dawning does look a bit stiff for the grade to be fair, even with the gear. E4 6b, it's out there in the streets every night…

[Bradders]

I don't know why there's all this debate when we have well designed tool to sort all of these things out, without having to rely on such poxy nonsense as "feelings" and "experience".

https://egrader.co.uk/

Well, there continues to be debate because this is an on-line forum therefore it must have content to thrive and survive.
In a wider context, what would climbers talk about if there wasnt this stuff to talk about?

For me, as i wizz headlong toward the feiry gates and inevitable oblivion...I give less and less of my time worrying or discussing the intricacies of grades{unless it is done tongue in cheek}.

Funny you mention feelings and experiences as That is what i will spend a lot of time discussing with climbing chums, a bit like trying to describe dancing to an Alien or why a peice of art or music moves you.

Anyway, carry on

Oh right, fair enough. In that case for the sake of pointless argument with a 7B/+ boulder grade and light padding egrader says this is E9 

[Will Hunt]

You have to factor danger into all this and the E grade was originally given for a lead/solo without pads. So something like the Great Flake is a complete path but the crux is committing and it's well off the floor. I'm not saying the Dawning is E4, but the fact that it was led and Mark must, at the time at least, have thought you could just get away with a fall from the crux will have depressed the grade a bit. There's more than a number grade worth of range in the bouldering grades that are given to mid-Es and a lot of it does make sense when the context of where the difficulties lie is considered.

[Teaboy]

I'm not saying the Dawning is E4, but the fact that it was led and Mark must, at the time at least, have thought you could just get away with a fall from the crux will have depressed the grade a bit. There's more than a number grade worth of range in the bouldering grades that are given to mid-Es and a lot of it does make sense when the context of where the difficulties lie is considered.

It makes absolutely no sense! A long 7B boulder problem would be F7c+/F8a (e.g. Weedkiller Traverse or LW Traverse in Parisellas). Lost Cause at Bowden is the same grade and short but has a F6B (?) crux. I know these are only two examples but font 7B does not belong on an E4 and never did and I’m struggling to think of E5s with that level of climbing

[teestub]

I know these are only two examples but font 7B does not belong on an E4 and never did and I’m struggling to think of E5s with that level of climbing

One Man and His Dogmas and True Pebble Wall at Caley? I think Edge of Darkness at Earl already mentioned.

[Teaboy]

I’m not saying people haven’t given stupidly low trad grades for hard problems just that it makes no sense to do so and if a ‘route’ has F7B climbing on it then it it is not E4 in any meaningful way. Just another example of why the E grade serves little purpose when applied to high balls and head points.

[User deactivated.]

I know these are only two examples but font 7B does not belong on an E4 and never did and I’m struggling to think of E5s with that level of climbing

One Man and His Dogmas and True Pebble Wall at Caley? I think Edge of Darkness at Earl already mentioned.

OMAHD is much easier and much safer. Haven't tried the others.


Anyone know how difficult Simba's Pride at Burbage is? I've heard someone suggest 6C+ and that's not a death fall either but gets E8!

[T_B]

Not a death fall? You might not die but you’d be incredibly lucky to walk away. You’d need a serious number of pads or a snow platform to make it a highball. It’s no harder than a purple at the Depot but hesitate on that last move and… urgh.

[Fiend]

Liamhutch go buy a set of hexes and get on some Hard Severes to start trad and then work up to E8 

[Dingdong]

Liam’s idea of a safe highball is very different to most people 

[spidermonkey09]

Have you stood underneath Simba's Pride?

[User deactivated.]

Not a death fall? You might not die but you’d be incredibly lucky to walk away. You’d need a serious number of pads or a snow platform to make it a highball. It’s no harder than a purple at the Depot but hesitate on that last move and… urgh.

My point is that there's plenty of things that height which don't get E8. Not sure if this photo link will work, but I think Red Alfa is a similar height with a poor landing and is harder than 6C+ (maybe 7A+/7B), but only gets E6. If you fell it would likely be uncontrolled and possibly on your back too! https://www.instagram.com/p/CrehdKMNy2k/

Have you stood underneath Simba's Pride?

Yeah, keen to try it!

[remus]

Not a death fall? You might not die but you’d be incredibly lucky to walk away. You’d need a serious number of pads or a snow platform to make it a highball. It’s no harder than a purple at the Depot but hesitate on that last move and… urgh.

Or build a big platform out of cardboard boxes as a couple of friends did. But yeah, if it had any gear on it everyone would just do it with a rope which in my eyes means it's more of a solo than a highball.

[Fiend]

Liam’s idea of a safe highball trad and trad grades is very different to most people 

[cheque]

It’s funny when people just divide deckouts into death and not death. That second category is really pretty broad.

[Will Hunt]

Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.

[User deactivated.]

Liamhutch go buy a set of hexes and get on some Hard Severes to start trad and then work up to E8 

I'm well aware that what I'm doing (abseil practice and pads) isn't trad, is poor style, terribly uncool, etc. but it's what i'm enjoying right now.

I'd get no enjoyment from onsighting Hard Severes or even E2's at the moment. I'm enjoying difficult moves (for me) that I need to practice enough to execute perfectly with some jeopardy and head game.

[Will Hunt]

On the contrary, Fiend is the last person to be the arbiter of what's cool 

[User deactivated.]

Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.

Fair enough if that's your idea of highballing (and it's the most ethically sound), but I don't think that's what most people think of when they hear highball. At the top level (e.g. Mellow crew) you always see them trying the moves on a rope. And most people I know who have done something high that's not a path have practiced it on a rope first. Agree that being honest on the style is important.

[User deactivated.]

It’s funny when people just divide deckouts into death and not death. That second category is really pretty broad.

Sorry, I used the term 'death-fall' loosely, but really, in my head I make a conscious division between things I probably wouldn't break bones falling off and things that I probably would break bones on. For me, Simbas Pride is near but at the right side of that line with a pad party. That's purely based on standing under it. After rope practice, I might change my mind if it's likely to land me on my head! However, the specifics of this particular route aren't relevant to the point i'm making, it just serves as an example. Decades of BMX/skateboard/downhill bikes has certainly affected my tolerance for risk, but also in knowing what I can 'get away with'. There's definitely skill involved in falling well.   

[Bradders]

Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.

Fair enough if that's your idea of highballing (and it's the most ethically sound), but I don't think that's what most people think of when they hear highball. At the top level (e.g. Mellow crew) you always see them trying the moves on a rope. And most people I know who have done something high that's not a path have practiced it on a rope first. Agree that being honest on the style is important.

Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.

[Tom de Gay]

My point is that there's plenty of things that height which don't get E8. Not sure if this photo link will work, but I think Red Alfa is a similar height with a poor landing and is harder than 6C+ (maybe 7A+/7B), but only gets E6. If you fell it would likely be uncontrolled and possibly on your back too! https://www.instagram.com/p/CrehdKMNy2k/

Red Alfa was originally given E7. I have a note in my guide that it's E6 coming in from the left, whatever that means.

The archetypal E4 6b highball is Above and Beyond at Burbage South, which gets 7A in new money.