[JohnM]

So for a climber aspiring to climb in the mid 8s say what would an example of training the end zone be for example?

If you're redpointing 8b+, then it's volume training at around 6b-7a and interval style short block training at around 8a. Those grades somewhat depend on how many years you've training, how good your baseline of endurance is etc etc.

Thanks a lot, that definitely points to what I suspected in that I do a lot of stuff in between.  I always thought 6b was too low intensity to have any benefit but I definitely don't do much 8a stuff below 30 moves.

[Tommy]

I doubt there'll be a "one size fits all" answer to this, but how rigid do you advise writing a training plan? Should you know how many sets you should be aiming to do a few weeks in advance?

Also, do you have any reccommended reading for a climber interested in how muscles adapt to training? I know that my body is on the fairly extreme end of being suited towards long "plodding" activities and it would be cool to know how to go about changing this (developing more fast twitch fibres?).

Cheers Tom

p.s. The fact that I don't need an excuse to be on UKB on a Friday night after exams says something about my life these days...

Writing a training plan in my opinion should occur in 2 steps (once you have the relevant background info on goals. standards, etc etc)

Step 1: paint broad strokes and cover your plan from start to goal and get the main "themes of training" decided on and what you'll focus on. Do 100% of that before step 2

Step 2: then fill in the detail on what to do each week according to the training themes you already decided on, how much time you have, what facilities you have and how much knowledge you have on training.

BIG ONE: Keep it simple!!! Some of the best plans you'll write for yourself will be simple ones. And stick to it. Don't make excuses.

Training and muscles - this one is fairly simple. Text books & web articles. Then check the literature behind it and find out how concrete the conclusions are. Then experiment on yourself. If you think your body is suited to plodding - you might be tricking yourself a bit. Or at least this is what I've seen. People think this when they've spent the last 10yrs doing exactly this type of climbing and training and then wonder why they're only good at plodding! Likewise people who spend all their time working on power, finishing fresh, never getting pumped and campussing like to think they're not suited to endurance. We are (to a large extent) the sum of our training history.

[Tommy]

Great question.  if the above is a true summary - i.e. the adaptation time is the plateau time - does the 80/20 pareto rule apply to these periods - so you would get 80% of the response in 20% of the time?

In my experience, no. I wish it was though!

[fatneck]

Good stuff although mostly over my head!

Can I refer the honourable gentleman (Tom) to my question about which he PMd me please?

Thanks

[Tommy]

I've got a few, mainly on behalf of my better-half (N.B. - at her behest):

• So, last year wasn't a bad one for her given she did her first F7b (Sticky Wicket), quickly followed by her second (Ground Effect) and she then nipped in on the eleventh hour to rumble up Slab Culture (first 7b+). Definitely struggles with the bouldery-side of things at Kilnsey (i.e. usually the starts, and more generally) but when redpointing it'll take a reasonably long time (these were ~10 sessions I think) with her getting up to the 'red-point crux' and falling off before one time everything just works (this is usually followed by falling off the finishing jug for good measure before an actual ascent). In my mind there's three things going wrong there (if we ignore the punting the top part) - general strength, aerobic capacity (arriving more pumped than necessary due to working anaerobically) and/or anaerobic capacity (linking continuously difficult moves together), am I even vaguely correct?

Issues you listed:

1. General strength - yup it could be. You can very easily argue if you took exact the same Nat and make her a touch stronger and kept her muscular efficiency the same then she probably wouldn't fall off.

2. AeroCap - yup could be. As AeroCap and AnCap are so tied up in different ways and with different intensities it's a really bloody complicated question to answer without specifically looking at Nat's performance!

3. AnCap - good chance that it is - many route climbers (especially the endurance type) have poorly developed AnCap. It's about what kind of force generation that Nat was summon (as a total of her max) when she's pumped. You'll probably know if it's good or bad yourself [/list]

[mrjonathanr]

Hola Tom. Does adaptation time refer to the point after which gains plateau, or begin to be retained?

From http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm

"Anaerobic Capacity refers to the body's ability to regenerate ATP using the glycolytic system and Anaerobic Power refers to the body's ability to regenerate ATP using the phosphagen system. "

(The times given for use of the respective systems are (from beginning exertion ) Anpower the first 1-4 seconds and Ancap 4-6).

Do the terms Aeropower and Aerocap similarly refer to the lactate and glycolytic/O2 systems of energy production respectively? I haven't seen them in non climbing literature.

I am asking this quite abstract question because it seems that the best way forward might well be be trial and error once I've grasped clearly how the different systems contribute energy ...


Thanks for your time!

Jon

[Tommy]

Assuming I can ask a question now and it will be answered on Friday...

I have a Euro trip coming up in three months. My loose plan is;

January - Weight loss and general conditioning (Pilates, weights, diet)
February - Finger boarding (probably CWB/Max Hangs)
March - Climbing lots, aiming to stay uninjured
Throughout - Try and fish a bit less and climb more...

Does this sound like a reasonable plan (bearing in mind I have a very busy job/lifestyle and the weather is shit)?
I appreciate the limitations of the question and the format of this Q&A session therefore, just some general advice about arriving in France in April in decent condition would be appreciated! Thanks 

1. Don't loose weight to early and too hard whilst training. This is a bad idea in my experience!

2. Fnigerboarding. Only if you have a history of it. One month is far too short to be making lasting physiological changes.

3. Climbing lots before a trip is good - it'll hone the training that you've put in. Lot of people leave this is bit too late as they have busy lives, live in a country where it rains all the time and work too much.

4. Fish less, fingerboard more (if you have decent history of it) as it's very time efficient for busy people.

[fatneck]

Thanks Tom. Appreciated!

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

[seankenny]

So for a climber aspiring to climb in the mid 8s say what would an example of training the end zone be for example?

If you're redpointing 8b+, then it's volume training at around 6b-7a and interval style short block training at around 8a. Those grades somewhat depend on how many years you've training, how good your baseline of endurance is etc etc.

So the 7b+ redpointer should be looking at 6a volume at the very maximum...?

[Tommy]

Hola Tom. Does adaptation time refer to the point after which gains plateau, or begin to be retained?

From http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm

"Anaerobic Capacity refers to the body's ability to regenerate ATP using the glycolytic system and Anaerobic Power refers to the body's ability to regenerate ATP using the phosphagen system. "

(The times given for use of the respective systems are (from beginning exertion ) Anpower the first 1-4 seconds and Ancap 4-6).

Do the terms Aeropower and Aerocap similarly refer to the lactate and glycolytic/O2 systems of energy production respectively? I haven't seen them in non climbing literature.

I am asking this quite abstract question because it seems that the best way forward might well be be trial and error once I've grasped clearly how the different systems contribute energy ...


Thanks for your time!

Jon

Adaptation times refer to times at which the "generic, average, genderless athlete" will reach their current potential. You'll see all sorts of times quoted and in my experience they vary a lot! In particular, I'm becoming more convinced from the data collection and analysis that I do, that the AnCap adaptation times are faster than quoted.

Aerobic power - is the max aerobic capacity that you can use for your "event distance" - it's this maximum % utilisation. Think of it as fine tuning of the AeroCap. Lactate production (can be seen as synonymous with pyruvate) is through anaerobic metabolism and it's function (and ultimately longevity) is affected greatly by the supply of O2.

[Tommy]

So for a climber aspiring to climb in the mid 8s say what would an example of training the end zone be for example?

If you're redpointing 8b+, then it's volume training at around 6b-7a and interval style short block training at around 8a. Those grades somewhat depend on how many years you've training, how good your baseline of endurance is etc etc.

Depend on how long it took that person to redoing the 7b+. If they took 5-10 goes then yes 6a would be fine. If it took them 203 goes then 6a+/6b might be more on the money. BUT..... it all depends on how good their baseline fitness is! That's why when you read anything about training and try and apply it to yourself, don't blindly follow the numbers. If it all feels wrong, then change it, or get reading/asking questions. Bottom line in this case is that you do NOT want to be pumped.

Hope that helps!

So the 7b+ redpointer should be looking at 6a volume at the very maximum...?

[Tommy]

Right, my forearms as dying and my social life has gone :-)
 One more question!

.... what do ya wanna know?

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks..so that terminology would make lactate/pyruvate an energy system for Ancap?

(the site I quoted gives 4 minutes as the limit for lactate produced energy.)

[seankenny]

Hope that helps!

Yes, thanks!

[highrepute]

Cheers Tom, I guess I fall into catagory 1, I can recover pretty well on rests and climb with a pump so aerobicly I guess I'm OK. I seem to power out 6 moves into both of my projects so must be just relying on my anerobic system which fails early on. I've already been working AnCap lately as part of my plan. By working the Aerobic system in conjuction would that include AeroPow as well as AeroCap?

Cheers

Ok, so this is a classic mistake people make. Just because you can recover at a jug doesn't mean you have good aerobic capacity (sorry!). Far from it. It's a part of the equation, but when you;re resting on a jug we're not seeing how your muscle produces ATP aerobically... it's not an indiction of the efficiency of that system exactly.

And no, just work aerocap for this I would say.

You would just train aerocap for someone powering out on left wall?

[Tommy]

Thanks..so that terminology would make lactate/pyruvate an energy system for Ancap?

(the site I quoted gives 4 minutes as the limit for lactate produced energy.)

Yes exactly - AnCap training will increase your maximum lactate production rate. AnPow will increase the max % of your AnCap that you can use for your event distance. 4 mins seems long - I can't quite agree with that... possibly it's related to a large muscle group in the leg? The forearm I think may be more limited.

[tomtom]

Right, my forearms as dying and my social life has gone :-)
 One more question!

.... what do ya wanna know?

Tom, I'm in the curry house. Madras or Dopiaza?

[mrjonathanr]

That's brilliant (yes I think it's aimed more at team sports/track etc).

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer tonight

[Tommy]

Right, my forearms as dying and my social life has gone :-)
 One more question!

.... what do ya wanna know?

Tom, I'm in the curry house. Madras or Dopiaza?

Madras, but go easy on the salt. It'll affect your AeroPow. Make the rest periods between the courses double the eating time.

---------------

Right, I'm off. Hope some of the answers helped people! Apologies if they further confused! :-). Hassle Barrows for clarification, he knows his shizzle.

[Luke Owens]

Ok, so this is a classic mistake people make. Just because you can recover at a jug doesn't mean you have good aerobic capacity (sorry!). Far from it. It's a part of the equation, but when you;re resting on a jug we're not seeing how your muscle produces ATP aerobically... it's not an indiction of the efficiency of that system exactly.

And no, just work aerocap for this I would say.

Cheers Tom, many thanks for taking the time to answer our questions!

You would just train aerocap for someone powering out on left wall?

I'm pretty sure he meant train the anerobic system in conjuction with the aerobic system by focusing on AeroCap and not AeroPow.

[shark]

Nice one Tommy. 

Time for your nocturnal training

[Nibile]

Cheers guys, I was busy with G&T yesterday evening but will take my time to go through this this evening with some more G&T.
Brilliant.

[Bencil]

So for a climber aspiring to climb in the mid 8s say what would an example of training the end zone be for example?

If you're redpointing 8b+, then it's volume training at around 6b-7a and interval style short block training at around 8a. Those grades somewhat depend on how many years you've training, how good your baseline of endurance is etc etc.

Hey Tom, just one tiny followup question....
What kind of work/rest structure does the high intensity training take? Something like 40 seconds on 20 seconds off like in your vid here? https://vimeo.com/87858386#t=135s
Whats the reasoning behind holding start and end positions? Thanks!

[Luke Owens]

Just a thought but if another Q&A happens again with either Tom or anyone else it might be a better option to collate the questions asked then the answers recorded via audio or video? (Not live)

It would be much easier than trying to type like maniac and would be quicker?

[Rocksteady]

Tom, I had a question on the adaptation times for different energy systems. My interpretation of the Binney material was this:

Ancap: 16 week adaptation time
Aerocap: 8+ week adaptation time
Anpow: 4-6 week adaptation time
Aerocap: 6 week adaptation time

Is this right? Is there any point including eg. ancap in your training if you aren't going to stay the course for 16 consistent weeks?

Yup, there's always benefits! You might not reach your own peak in each in a shorter period, but you will almost certainly achieve some adaptation. What's also not to be underrated is that you'll learn a lot. In those first few years of self experimentation wit training and different sessions I learnt absolutely loads about intensities, what rest I needed, what didn't work that said it would in text books, what things I had to do less of for me personally.

Yeah go for it - you're bound to learn a load with your eyes open :-)

Thanks Tommy, much appreciated