[r-man]

Alccap or Alcpow?

Accapi?

Anasazi?

Pink.

[Teaboy]

The  only thing I'm really interested in in the next few weeks is getting some (any) basic strength so I've decided most of my training is going to be max dead hangs and max weight pull ups. I work from home so I can take plenty of rest between reps/sets (in this case reps and sets will be analogous with one another) but is there really any value in just going sets of a single pullup and single, short duration dead hangs?

If so:
How long should I aim to hang for each rep?
How many reps of these max hangs should I be doing?
How many reps of single rep pull ups should I do?

If not how many weighted pull ups per set?

Is it best to do an entire session of this sort of thing or should I do some bouldering afterwards as well?

For context I'm 46 and regularly injure myself just getting changed but I'm prepared to risk further injury. I'm also a lot weaker than most people on this board could even imagine.

[cjsheps]

Teaboy, I've been asking myself the same question recently, and stumbled across this:

https://www.t-nation.com/training/training-percentages-made-simple

It gives an approximate number of reps and sets at different percentages of your 1RM. It depends how you define a "rep" though with hangs (I'd go for ~3s), and obviously hangs are isometric so the studies may not apply etc etc.

If in doubt, I guess a good idea would be to do some hangs, stopping before you lose form. Then, next session try doing some more, and see if that was too much. Continue session-by-session: the hard bit is being switched-on enough each session to monitor things properly. I for one am pretty bad for ending up exercising without thinking for whole sessions...

[Tommy]

Hi everyone, I'll be with you all in about 10 mins.

Warming my hands up for some extra fast typing :-)

[seankenny]

My question:

You recently mentioned something about people doing wasted miles at the climbing wall.  I was wondering whether you could clarify what that it is as I am beginning to wonder if I am doing wasted miles.  My "stam" training at the wall tends to revolve around climbing 7b-7c to the top feeling a medium to high level of pump and then down climbing 6c-7a shaking out and trying to recover and then re-climbing the same up route fighting the pump all the way.  I get a pretty high level of pump after this and then rest 15 mins and then try and do another 2-3 sets.

1.  Is this wasted miles?
2.  What am I actually training (anaerobic capacity etc?)?

+1 for this. I thought aerocap is "pumped but in control" which means I can get quite pumped - over say 6 reps of a 10m wall on an autobelay. But is this wasted miles? What sort of aerocap effort/duration should I be looking at for either Euro endurance routes or UK trad, ie Pembroke-esque pitches?

[Tommy]

Right.... what shall I do? Start at the first Q back on page 2 and work through? How many of the drug related Sublime questions to ask (very valid questions)... etc etc.

Where's sensible thinking moderator when you need one?

[Luke Owens]

Just make sure you answer mine Tommy don't worry about them other punters 

Haha, first come first serve I guess?

[Mr_Cus]

Tom,

Saw you at the works  this eve.  When are you going to tape up that other hole in your jacket? you're loosing feathers!! 

[T_B]

What? I thought he was supposed to be putting the kids to bed!?

[rosmat]

Right.... what shall I do? Start at the first Q back on page 2 and work through? How many of the drug related Sublime questions to ask (very valid questions)... etc etc.

Where's sensible thinking moderator when you need one?

Maybe pick a selection of questions that cover the main areas of interest?

[Tommy]

Cheers for offering to do this! Not sure if you read through my thread you originally posted on Tommy but I'll ask on here anyway.

I'm currently into the 2nd week of a 11 week training plan geared towards 2 short 7c routes which are basicly bouldery and involve ~15 move sequences. The moves are fine in isolation but when linking I power out. This is what also happens to me on every route I redpoint, I rarely get pumped or find moves hard in isolation I just power out quickly when linking sections of hard moves. I've bouldered 7A/+ and redpointed 7b+ but still power out on ~7a routes at the best of times. Never figured out what the missing link is but just climbing alone never seemed to improve this.

There was mixed opinions on the other thread as to how much importance I should pay to each energy system during this plan given the short time frame; some saying not to do any AeroCap/Pow at all and concentrate on strength and AnCap/Pow. What would you recommend (Don't worry about to much detail) and what is the importance (if any) of AeroCap/Pow when it comes to short routes?

Sorry for the long question, cheers!

Yours first Luke as you're keen.

So the question is if you're quite capable of doing the moves, but as soon as you get a certain way into something you power out and thus can't hold on? And you don't get a hideous pump? Then it can potentially be a few things - never a simple answer eh?!

1. What I see the most of: people have overly developed the anaerobic system and rely on this primarily for energy. It only runs for a limited time at max. They power out.

2. What I see less of: people have a poorly developed aerobic AND anaerobic system. Thus they need to be overly strong for the route and will only keep going once they have utilised as much as they can of the anaerobic alactic and what ever they can out of the anaerobic lactic. They power out.

Solution - depends on which of the above you're more likely to be.

1. You develop you anaerobic system harder and work the aerobic system in conjunction so that AnCap doesn't shut down so early.

2. You work on better base strength so you can get away with over powering the route on option 2. 

[Tommy]

What? I thought he was supposed to be putting the kids to bed!?

No, a rare evening out doing some coaching I'm afraid. What a life!

[rosmat]

Cheers for offering to do this! Not sure if you read through my thread you originally posted on Tommy but I'll ask on here anyway.

I'm currently into the 2nd week of a 11 week training plan geared towards 2 short 7c routes which are basicly bouldery and involve ~15 move sequences. The moves are fine in isolation but when linking I power out. This is what also happens to me on every route I redpoint, I rarely get pumped or find moves hard in isolation I just power out quickly when linking sections of hard moves. I've bouldered 7A/+ and redpointed 7b+ but still power out on ~7a routes at the best of times. Never figured out what the missing link is but just climbing alone never seemed to improve this.

There was mixed opinions on the other thread as to how much importance I should pay to each energy system during this plan given the short time frame; some saying not to do any AeroCap/Pow at all and concentrate on strength and AnCap/Pow. What would you recommend (Don't worry about to much detail) and what is the importance (if any) of AeroCap/Pow when it comes to short routes?

Sorry for the long question, cheers!

Yours first Luke as you're keen.

So the question is if you're quite capable of doing the moves, but as soon as you get a certain way into something you power out and thus can't hold on? And you don't get a hideous pump? Then it can potentially be a few things - never a simple answer eh?!

1. What I see the most of: people have overly developed the anaerobic system and rely on this primarily for energy. It only runs for a limited time at max. They power out.

2. What I see less of: people have a poorly developed aerobic AND anaerobic system. Thus they need to be overly strong for the route and will only keep going once they have utilised as much as they can of the anaerobic alactic and what ever they can out of the anaerobic lactic. They power out.

Solution - depends on which of the above you're more likely to be.

1. You develop you anaerobic system harder and work the aerobic system in conjunction so that AnCap doesn't shut down so early.

2. You work on better base strength so you can get away with over powering the route on option 2.

Since there seems to be cross over between strength and anaerobic capacity work - would a sensible approach for those who are time limited be to focus on anaerobic capacity and aerobic capacity?

[Tommy]

My question:

You recently mentioned something about people doing wasted miles at the climbing wall.  I was wondering whether you could clarify what that it is as I am beginning to wonder if I am doing wasted miles.  My "stam" training at the wall tends to revolve around climbing 7b-7c to the top feeling a medium to high level of pump and then down climbing 6c-7a shaking out and trying to recover and then re-climbing the same up route fighting the pump all the way.  I get a pretty high level of pump after this and then rest 15 mins and then try and do another 2-3 sets.

1.  Is this wasted miles?
2.  What am I actually training (anaerobic capacity etc?)?

+1 for this. I thought aerocap is "pumped but in control" which means I can get quite pumped - over say 6 reps of a 10m wall on an autobelay. But is this wasted miles? What sort of aerocap effort/duration should I be looking at for either Euro endurance routes or UK trad, ie Pembroke-esque pitches?

You should consider aerobic capacity training as anything which results in an improvement in your aerocap. It's kind of that simple! But.... of course there are some methods which are more efficient than others and some which will work better for your personal goals.

AeroCap can be a whole range of intensities and volumes and rest periods - if you're stressing the aerobic system, then it's going to have benefits.

Over the years, I've found that the middle zone of climbing just about in control has worse results than splitting the intensity - it's simply an observation from writing hundreds of plans and looking at what happens. I've likewise tried these things out with my own climbing. I haven't trained in that middle zone for perhaps 4-5 years now?

BUT..... I do think it still have some use at certain times of the year - in particular as a transition into the peak period of training for route climbers. Try and think of it not being a perfect answer for every scenario. It has its place, but think about why you're using it.

[Tommy]

Since there seems to be cross over between strength and anaerobic capacity work - would a sensible approach for those who are time limited be to focus on anaerobic capacity and aerobic capacity?

Yup, I think so. I've always had decent strength gains from AnCap work (you have to be really disciplined to make it proper hard though and don't go easy on yourself) and I've seen many others benefit from this type of work. The high you travel up the grades though, the more directed and specific you'll need to be.

[JohnM]

My question:

You recently mentioned something about people doing wasted miles at the climbing wall.  I was wondering whether you could clarify what that it is as I am beginning to wonder if I am doing wasted miles.  My "stam" training at the wall tends to revolve around climbing 7b-7c to the top feeling a medium to high level of pump and then down climbing 6c-7a shaking out and trying to recover and then re-climbing the same up route fighting the pump all the way.  I get a pretty high level of pump after this and then rest 15 mins and then try and do another 2-3 sets.

1.  Is this wasted miles?
2.  What am I actually training (anaerobic capacity etc?)?

+1 for this. I thought aerocap is "pumped but in control" which means I can get quite pumped - over say 6 reps of a 10m wall on an autobelay. But is this wasted miles? What sort of aerocap effort/duration should I be looking at for either Euro endurance routes or UK trad, ie Pembroke-esque pitches?

You should consider aerobic capacity training as anything which results in an improvement in your aerocap. It's kind of that simple! But.... of course there are some methods which are more efficient than others and some which will work better for your personal goals.

AeroCap can be a whole range of intensities and volumes and rest periods - if you're stressing the aerobic system, then it's going to have benefits.

Over the years, I've found that the middle zone of climbing just about in control has worse results than splitting the intensity - it's simply an observation from writing hundreds of plans and looking at what happens. I've likewise tried these things out with my own climbing. I haven't trained in that middle zone for perhaps 4-5 years now?

BUT..... I do think it still have some use at certain times of the year - in particular as a transition into the peak period of training for route climbers. Try and think of it not being a perfect answer for every scenario. It has its place, but think about why you're using it.

So for a climber aspiring to climb in the mid 8s say what would an example of training the end zone be for example?

[Bencil]

I've got two, possibly silly, questions with regards to bouldering. 

1) Is periodisation (as addressed in RCTM and Barrow's Training for sport climbing) the best way to improve in the long run for someone who doesn't necessarily care about training for an upcoming trip/peaking?

(I'm aware both documents are primarily aimed at sport climbing.)

Furthermore,

2) Is it still worthwhile trying to follow (or design) a periodisation training plan, if I still plan on climbing outside (and performing to some degree) every weekend?


[If it makes any difference I'm currently trying to establish myself in the high 7's/low 8's.]

+1 for question 1

If you aren't training for a specific route does your approach change? Work on the caps and strength rather than the pows?

Thanks!

[Tommy]

I've got two, possibly silly, questions with regards to bouldering. 

1) Is periodisation (as addressed in RCTM and Barrow's Training for sport climbing) the best way to improve in the long run for someone who doesn't necessarily care about training for an upcoming trip/peaking?

(I'm aware both documents are primarily aimed at sport climbing.)

Furthermore,

2) Is it still worthwhile trying to follow (or design) a periodisation training plan, if I still plan on climbing outside (and performing to some degree) every weekend?


[If it makes any difference I'm currently trying to establish myself in the high 7's/low 8's.]

I think (and I'm going to be biased!) that it's a great way of disciplining and organising your climbing/training. Most of us, giving a chance would just go down the wall and try hard for a bit, potter around, do some hangs, maybe try some party tricks with some mates. This works for a bit, but yields worse and worse results with time.

So yes you could periodise. But also you could simply right a plan of what you want to do in each session for the next 8 weeks and actually stick to it.

Q2 - this part to me, makes even more sense to periodise your climbing. I want to climb well outside most of the year (and I sort of need to for my job) but I also want to improve year on year. Periodising my training allows me to plan and accept when I'm gong to feel good and also when I'll probably be off the pace and to lower my expectations.

Hope that helps? Tricky question!

[Tommy]

So for a climber aspiring to climb in the mid 8s say what would an example of training the end zone be for example?

If you're redpointing 8b+, then it's volume training at around 6b-7a and interval style short block training at around 8a. Those grades somewhat depend on how many years you've training, how good your baseline of endurance is etc etc.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers for offering to do this! Not sure if you read through my thread you originally posted on Tommy but I'll ask on here anyway.

I'm currently into the 2nd week of a 11 week training plan geared towards 2 short 7c routes which are basicly bouldery and involve ~15 move sequences. The moves are fine in isolation but when linking I power out. This is what also happens to me on every route I redpoint, I rarely get pumped or find moves hard in isolation I just power out quickly when linking sections of hard moves. I've bouldered 7A/+ and redpointed 7b+ but still power out on ~7a routes at the best of times. Never figured out what the missing link is but just climbing alone never seemed to improve this.

There was mixed opinions on the other thread as to how much importance I should pay to each energy system during this plan given the short time frame; some saying not to do any AeroCap/Pow at all and concentrate on strength and AnCap/Pow. What would you recommend (Don't worry about to much detail) and what is the importance (if any) of AeroCap/Pow when it comes to short routes?

Sorry for the long question, cheers!

Yours first Luke as you're keen.

So the question is if you're quite capable of doing the moves, but as soon as you get a certain way into something you power out and thus can't hold on? And you don't get a hideous pump? Then it can potentially be a few things - never a simple answer eh?!

1. What I see the most of: people have overly developed the anaerobic system and rely on this primarily for energy. It only runs for a limited time at max. They power out.

2. What I see less of: people have a poorly developed aerobic AND anaerobic system. Thus they need to be overly strong for the route and will only keep going once they have utilised as much as they can of the anaerobic alactic and what ever they can out of the anaerobic lactic. They power out.

Solution - depends on which of the above you're more likely to be.

1. You develop you anaerobic system harder and work the aerobic system in conjunction so that AnCap doesn't shut down so early.

2. You work on better base strength so you can get away with over powering the route on option 2.

Cheers Tom, I guess I fall into catagory 1, I can recover pretty well on rests and climb with a pump so aerobicly I guess I'm OK. I seem to power out 6 moves into both of my projects so must be just relying on my anerobic system which fails early on. I've already been working AnCap lately as part of my plan. By working the Aerobic system in conjuction would that include AeroPow as well as AeroCap?

Cheers

[Tommy]

+1 for question 1

If you aren't training for a specific route does your approach change? Work on the caps and strength rather than the pows?

Thanks!

Actually, I think I possibly have a better answer for that than my previous one. The best way to long term improve is to objectively find out what your strengths and weaknesses are (mates are quite often brutally honest with this stuff if you ask them!) and then systematically try to address your weaknesses. So many people, just can't hack that part. It's too demoralising and it hurts your ego. That's why training at home can be damage limitation :-)

So in summary, it's not just about "caps", "pows", finger strength" etc. It's about finding out which is ineffective for you and doing something about it with whatever method works for you. It's got to work for you though. Otherwise you'll get depsyched.

[Tommy]

Cheers Tom, I guess I fall into catagory 1, I can recover pretty well on rests and climb with a pump so aerobicly I guess I'm OK. I seem to power out 6 moves into both of my projects so must be just relying on my anerobic system which fails early on. I've already been working AnCap lately as part of my plan. By working the Aerobic system in conjuction would that include AeroPow as well as AeroCap?

Cheers

Ok, so this is a classic mistake people make. Just because you can recover at a jug doesn't mean you have good aerobic capacity (sorry!). Far from it. It's a part of the equation, but when you;re resting on a jug we're not seeing how your muscle produces ATP aerobically... it's not an indiction of the efficiency of that system exactly.

And no, just work aerocap for this I would say.

[Tommy]

Q1)Am I strong enough to do Fisheye? ;-)

Q2)In your training beta podcast/interview you discuss relative peak forces the human forearm can create. What do you consider to be a maximum for the human forearm? 80kg? More?

Q1 - yes ;-)

Q2 - I'm not sure what the maximum is! I keep collecting data and of course I'm always surprised by what I find. Ollie Torr (who I work with) constantly reminds me that this maximal force on the human arm is going to be strongly related to body size i.e. we'd see a pretty decent force in a 18st bodybuilder, but he'd climb like crap. I've seen figures over 80kg, so no it's not the limit.  Go big Ally! :-)

[cjsheps]

I doubt there'll be a "one size fits all" answer to this, but how rigid do you advise writing a training plan? Should you know how many sets you should be aiming to do a few weeks in advance?

Also, do you have any reccommended reading for a climber interested in how muscles adapt to training? I know that my body is on the fairly extreme end of being suited towards long "plodding" activities and it would be cool to know how to go about changing this (developing more fast twitch fibres?).

Cheers Tom

p.s. The fact that I don't need an excuse to be on UKB on a Friday night after exams says something about my life these days...

[Tommy]

Tom, I had a question on the adaptation times for different energy systems. My interpretation of the Binney material was this:

Ancap: 16 week adaptation time
Aerocap: 8+ week adaptation time
Anpow: 4-6 week adaptation time
Aerocap: 6 week adaptation time

Is this right? Is there any point including eg. ancap in your training if you aren't going to stay the course for 16 consistent weeks?

Yup, there's always benefits! You might not reach your own peak in each in a shorter period, but you will almost certainly achieve some adaptation. What's also not to be underrated is that you'll learn a lot. In those first few years of self experimentation wit training and different sessions I learnt absolutely loads about intensities, what rest I needed, what didn't work that said it would in text books, what things I had to do less of for me personally.

Yeah go for it - you're bound to learn a load with your eyes open :-)