[Ally Smith]

I am happy to wait till next year to do it after Lee gets it - I reckon that is reasonable. Any longer than that and I am not sure...

Sounds like a sensible approach.

Should the same now apply to the other projects in the Gorge?

Personally, I've enough on the project front at the Diamond to be getting involved with a Gorge project too.

I also know that one of the things i partially bolted last year is probably a pipe dream for me. El Mocho is very interested in the same line and I wouldn't dream of making him wait a whole season to get it done, but at the same time, would love to have the opportunity to get on it first and see if it is completely out of my league?

[Davo]

I reckon you should keep your project for at least another season Ally. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. Have a go at it, see how hard it is and how far away you are and if you reckon it is possible to train for it.

As for the other stuff in the gorge I have no idea what the other projects are. Personally I reckon yes they should be opened up if not done or being actively tried. However I haven't bolted them or put the effort into them which I reckon gives the developers a lot of leeway in terms of time.

Dave

[El Mocho]

Personally, I've enough on the project front at the Diamond to be getting involved with a Gorge project too.

I also know that one of the things i partially bolted last year is probably a pipe dream for me. El Mocho is very interested in the same line and I wouldn't dream of making him wait a whole season to get it done, but at the same time, would love to have the opportunity to get on it first and see if it is completely out of my league?

Don't worry Ally - I have a different focus at the Diamond which I think will be taking all my time! The line you started bolting still needs the last few bolts and belay placing - there is an old rope of Doylos attached to the screw in bolts I placed at the belay spot and I got 5 or so glue ins above your couple of bolts but still another 3 or 4 to add (and a proper belay - the battery in the drill died)

With this good weather it should all be dry

sorry 

Had a look at the devil's gorge line one day (from the other side of the gorge, not on a rope) and it does look very good

[Doylo]

It's Robins you need to watch 

[Ally Smith]

Cheers Ben.
I'll be down there bolting as soon as the ban is off 

[lee proctor]

Dear all,

I was alerted to this thread by a friend

I bolted the extension to Grand Canyon and have been trying the route for several years.  The conditions at Pantymwyn are very challenging, the crag gets soaked for at least half the year and during the summer months can be very susceptible to condensation.  Last year was a wash out and this year has been pretty difficult too.  I am currently in France for a two week jolly, I was on my project in less than ideal conditions before I left and hope to get back on it, conditions depending, when I return.  I have been extremely close on red-point and could have grabbed the clips on the belay at least twice but I’ve always wanted to climb it in good style.  The route is fabulous but there are loads of other good routes out there for people to do and first ascents to bag.  I have invested a lot of time into this and really would like to do the first ascent as it means a lot to me.  I am sure there are many wads that would piss up it and get another grade 8 tick soon to be forgotten. Can I please request people leave this route alone and let me get on and do it.  If that seems selfish then so be it!

Lee

[Davo]

Hey Lee

That place certainly does have some interesting conditions. I don't really understand how it condenses out so easily.

I had a brief look up the extension about 3 weeks ago with firend of mine Matt (who started the thread) and thought it was brilliant and wanted to know if someone was actually trying it, which was the point of starting the thread. Glad to hear that you are actively on it and are close on the redpoint. Personally I am not a wad who pisses up 8a just someone who would like to have a brilliant long enduro route like that close ish to Liverpool. I shall stay off the route this season as obviously you are very psyched and it is your route to do. Next year if I get down there I am not sure...


Anyway good luck on the redpoint and I hope you get it done soon. I am very keen to have a go at the route when you get it finally ticked.

Dave

[lee proctor]

 I shall stay off the route this season as obviously you are very psyched and it is your route to do. Next year if I get down there I am not sure...

Dave
[/quote]

Hi Dave I don't know you but I appreciate your encouragement.  I am however puzzled by your final comment above. If I interpret your statement correctly it appears to me that you would be more than happy to come along and "steal" my project next year if for some reason I have not done it by then. If this is true then I cannot really understand that mentality!

I had the vision for this line, cleaned it bolted it and also over the last few years have re-equipped all the other lines at the crag as well as establishing some new routes. I can confidently say that my efforts have established Pantymwyn as a venue of merit. I admit that I have no right of ownership but I do believe there is a strong ethic within the UK climbing scene to respect people's projects if they had the vision to clean and equip an otherwise unclimbed bit of rock. Instead of threatening to steal someone else's dream why not find you own put the effort in and bag a great first ascent for yourself.

If I have misinterpreted your sentiment then please accept my apologies. I am not a regular pundit on Internet forums. This route however DOES Mean A LOT to me, if I wasn't or hadn't been trying it over the years I wouldn't care so much.

Rant over

Lee

[ianto9]

i don't know lee but hes 100% right,he's put the effort in etc ,if it takes another 15 years so be it,stay the f*** off HIS route,people have lives to live and can't climb as much as they would like believe me.rant over

[Davo]

Hi Dave I don't know you but I appreciate your encouragement.  I am however puzzled by your final comment above. If I interpret your statement correctly it appears to me that you would be more than happy to come along and "steal" my project next year if for some reason I have not done it by then. If this is true then I cannot really understand that mentality!

I had the vision for this line, cleaned it bolted it and also over the last few years have re-equipped all the other lines at the crag as well as establishing some new routes. I can confidently say that my efforts have established Pantymwyn as a venue of merit. I admit that I have no right of ownership but I do believe there is a strong ethic within the UK climbing scene to respect people's projects if they had the vision to clean and equip an otherwise unclimbed bit of rock. Instead of threatening to steal someone else's dream why not find you own put the effort in and bag a great first ascent for yourself.

If I have misinterpreted your sentiment then please accept my apologies. I am not a regular pundit on Internet forums. This route however DOES Mean A LOT to me, if I wasn't or hadn't been trying it over the years I wouldn't care so much.

Rant over

Lee
[/quote]

Hi Lee

No you haven't misinterpreted my sentiment exactly but I think you have interepreted it with a lot more emotion than I do which is understandable as it is your long-term project. We haven't met and I have no wish to fall out but I don't exactly agree with some of your arguments above.

I understand the idea of closed projects and have never stolen anyone's line or to be honest considered it. I would ordinarily say that anyone actively trying a project that they bolted has as long as they want to get it done. I appreciate the re-bolting efforts that you have made (to be honest I didn't know who had done it - but thanks anyway) and I think that you are right that you have put a lot into the place and made it massively accessible. I reckon that all the above points give you a huge claim to have a good and long run at getting an obvious line like the extension to Grand Canyon done without any threats of it being stolen.

However, I don't know if it gives you an indefinite run at the extension. Firstly it is a pretty obvious line - yes you bolted it but it wouldn't be difficult to get it equipped and cleaned but it is a massively obvious line to anyone who does Grand Canyon and it is only a couple of more bolts to the top of the crag. Personally I wasn't climbing in the North West when you bolted the extension but the first time I walked down there and looked across at Grand canyon it seemed pretty obvious that it should go all the way to the top. Yep you had the vision to bolt it but perhaps you just got there first?

Long brilliant enduro 8as (I don't know the grade - you could give a clearer estimate) are rare in the UK and pretty much non-existent in the Clwyd. If we lived in Spain and you told me to go out and bolt my own 3 star mega classic then I would reckon you had a fair point but around here? Long, great lines are in fairly short supply and they certainly are so close to Liverpool, I don't see that it is good to have such an obviously brilliant route closed to everyone for such a long time - a few years is clearly reasonable but when did you bolt it and how long have you been trying it? How long do you personally think is reasonable for someone to have to try their project? Are you saying that Grand Canyon Extension is yours to try forever even if in 10 years you still haven't done it? That seems unreasonable to me. 


Anyway personally as I have said earlier in the thread I don't care about a first ascent - if you wish to know it isn't something I give two hoots about in climbing, I just want to climb a great route that is really close to Liverpool. I don't want to piss you off (although I am certain I have) I just think that routes as good as the extension to Grand Canyon shouldn't be closed projects forever to only be tried by someone who got there first.

Okay, good luck in getting the extension done. I am genuinely psyched for you and in all honesty it is extremely unlikely that I shall get down there again anytime soon as I have moved away from Liverpool to the climbing desert of the West Midlands so am mostly climbing in the peak. Just so you know I am not constantly throwing a greedy eye over anyone's project there!

Dave

[petejh]

Sorry Lee, you're a mate and a top bloke - try to take this as well-meaning. But it isn't right to expect ownership over a project for anything more than a couple of years - on any crag. I gave my Diamond 8b+ project up the following year after bolting it, and I'm capable of training to climb that route. That's me bolting an 18m rising continuously diagonal line, with resin bolts, on an epic tidal crag which gets bad conditions, is one of the very few lines on that cliff that seeps, the route will be a sure-fire 3 star classic; on a cliff which I single-handedly spent 3 months creating an access line to even get to - if anyone anywhere ever had claim over an awkward hard project it's me on that one. But I can see the bigger picture.

People are getting a bit tired of waiting for two people to climb what aren't particularly hard but are brilliant routes. It's unfair to the majority who just want to enjoy climbing in Devil's Gorge to keep these things closed for multiple years - all are at least 3 years, I think probably more than that. GC extension is listed as a project in 2005 - that's just a ridiculous length of time for anyone to say to people they can't get on a route which is essentially a little 10m vertical 8a extension with 3 bolts, which you can easily walk to the top of, drop a rope anchored from a massive tree and work the moves in 5 minutes. This should have been climbed years ago - it's obviously a fitness issue, so get fit and do it or give it up. It takes a few weeks of dedicated foot-on campus training to get a spike-up in power endurance, it's not like trying to get massive increases in finger strength overnight.


Devil's Gorge should by now be a really good developed sport crag. From left to right the routes are as follows:
Echoes 1 * 7a
8a/7c+ above belay of Echoes (project) two or three stars - I put the hangers back on this last year. It was too wet all year, now I'm injured all this year. Have at it, it wasn't mine.
7c+/8a to right of Echoes. (closed project) This will be amazing, 2 or 3 stars.
Grand Canyon 7b+ ***
GC Extension 7c+/8a (closed project) 3 stars.
Mark of Zorro Link-up 7b **
Broccoli and Ice-cream 7b **
Direct to Broccoli 7c (closed project) another amazing line. 2 or 3 stars.
Ivory Smile 7c 1 or 2 stars - needs cleaning and better bolts - they're probably bomber but look like shite and they're mild steel. Should really be resin bolts in the calcite/limestone variable rock.
Ten Year Fog 7c - 1 or 2 stars - needs cleaning and better bolts, same as above.
Bananas & Coffee 7a * - I resin bolted the start of this, decent route.
La Port de l'Enfer 7b * - direct though boulder wall.
Comfortably Numb 7a no stars.

The left-hand side of the gorge is by far the best climbing. Unfortunately of the 8 possible routes to climb on the best bit of the gorge, 4 are projects and 3 of those are closed off to anyone else who wants to climb them.


And Ian - you're proj is good but it's not of the quality of these routes. This is an issue of a brilliant but under-developed crag not being developed. Yours was a good little local's testpiece on a fully-developed crag (pen trwyn) with 200 odd routes. And I bet it's nails!


 

[lee proctor]

Hi Pete,

I understand your points but this route means a lot to me and I've put a lot of effort in over the years.  For your information I spotted cleaned and bolted the route that eventually became Insomnia at Dinbren (8b). However after a quick play I realised it was too hard for me so declared it an open project and actually belayed Pete Chadwick when he did the first ascent. I have similarly cleaned and equipped with belays new lines at Minera and Craig Arthur both of which would be class grade 8 routes that I've declared as open projects. As such I don't think I can be accused of selfishly holding onto new lines especially when I know they are too hard for me to do, I suspect your 8b+ Diamond project falls into this category.

Getting back to GC. I have been so close to doing this on a number of occasions that I have genuine belief I can do it. Two years ago we were blessed with the gorge remaining dry for several months and I nearly did it in September but ran out of time before it became wet. Last year the gorge was basically wet all year and I only managed one good red point go. This year we had a good dry spell in early May but I was under par from pnuemonia and it then got wet again. I am hoping to get on it once this hot weather goes as it can get heavily condensated when it's warm making it near impossible to climb.

To further clarify, I did bolt the line just before the Clwyd RF went to press but didn't really start working it until about a couple of years later since then it's been game on. With reference to the other projects. The direct on Broccoli is Jamie's, he was getting very very close last year was super phsyced this year but he badly broke his ankle 4 months ago bouldering and is still recovering after major surgery. We should not deny him his chance to climb something which for him is as important as my project is to me.

The project above Echoes was I believe originally bolted by Tony Schelmerdine but I maybe wrong. I have never tried it but it has always been known as an open project locally. I suspected you had rebolted/replaced the hangers under the roof but I also did the same for the groove above the roof. The project that climbs directly into this I equipped with Jamie and neither of us views this as a closed project, in fact I was even trying to persuade Doylo to give it a bash. the moves to the intermediate lower off are about 7c+/8a and the whole thing would be a great hard 8a/+

Finally to answer your question is it a fitness issue? When I have the fitness it seems to be a mental issue and when I have the mindset it seems to be a fitness issue. That in essence sums up red-pointing at your limit and it sums up the whole process that all of us get hooked into including the heroes, from memory It took Sharma a serious long time to do FRFM and he too faced similar critiscm from Nalle and others but ultimately he was left to do it in his own time quietly without a load of Vultures preying on him.

Anyway I,ve just got back from watching Froome crush in the mountains in the Tour de France which was an awesome spectacle. I am about to unpack then wander down the gorge to check on the conditions.

Catch up soon and no hard feelings

Lee

[Ru]

Let Lee do his route. It's not the most important route in the world and no-ones climbing career is going to be any poorer for waiting. A little generosity should be worth more than another tick.

Whilst he is actively trying it, people should back off, even if that's for 10 years+. No doubt if Lee had spent 100s of hours ticking routes bolted by other people rather than rebolting the Clwyd he would have had the fitness to tick this routes years ago, but he didn't and instead we have a nationally important climbing area minus one particular route that he's reserved for himself. A small price to pay.

There are many new route opportunities left and I wonder if people would be circling this route if it weren't already bolted and easy pickings. Looking at places like Kilnsey in the 90s when people used to lock up their projects it seems ridiculous that any route would ever get poached back then, given the amount of excellent lines that no one considered until years later.

[shark]

If someone is regularly trying a new route then it should be considered a closed project which is what it sounds like in this instance.

[Pantontino]

I agree with Ru. With all the public spirited effort Lee has put into the Clwyd area he deserves not to be hounded. There's enough pressure in the headpoint game as it stands without Dave handing out what amounts to veiled threats (sorry Dave, but that is how your posts read to me).

It's a special case - simple as that. The normal rules of engagement should be suspended.

Good luck Lee, I hope you get it soon.

[Luke Owens]

I also agree with Ru, the amount that Lee has given to the area is enough to let him have this for himself.

After all it's not like the whole route is the project only the short extension. Surely the people wanting to do it won't lose sleep over a few bolts worth of climbing if they have to wait?

There are plenty of other established and better ~F8a's out there which aren't even to far away. As Lee said himself "This route means a lot to me and I've put a lot of effort in over the years."

Give the guy a break and let him finish off the route. As Ru said: "A little generosity should be worth more than another tick."

[Davo]

Hey Si

I don't think my intentions were veiled. I hope I have been pretty clear - I would like to do it but I don't want to steal it and I don't care about the first ascent. This may seem strange to those motivated by that but in all honesty I don't care who does it first I just would like to climb it at some stage soon ish and not have to wait another 8 years.

 I reckon it is a brilliant route - going to be one of the best 8as in Wales and to be honest there aren't that many routes as good as Grand Canyon in the UK (this may be slight exaggeration but Devil's Gorge is brilliant it is just ruined by conditions in there). Put Grand Canyon at Kilnsey and it would be the best 7b+ there.

I agree that if someone is trying a route actively then they should be left alone -  but for 8 years? Also how often does someone have to be trying it for that to be active? In all honesty (and only Lee can answer this) has Lee really been trying it regularly? To me regularly means every weekend when it is vaguely reasonable conditions, regularly isn't once a month or so.
 
As Pete earlier said it is a short extension , took very little effort to bolt and very little vision. Even me (and I really don't have an eye for a new line) saw that extension the first time I was there. If we lived in Spain with millions of lines everywhere and literally thousands of primo enduro 8as everywhere then that would be different but in the Clwyd?

I agree that it is a special case here which is why Lee has had 8 years to complete it. I understand conditions are terrible down there and in all honesty I really do appreciate his bolting efforts. To be fair I appreciate anyone who goes out and bolts routes and I really don't have an intention of actually stealing it off him. I just want to do it at some point and I would rather that point wasn't 8 more years away!

Anyway hopefully Lee will get it done this season and be able to open it up to the rest of us next year or even this autumn!

Dave 
 

[Falling Down]

Maybe some of the younger guys might think differently about how long it takes to do a project when they are 40+ and juggling jobs, family, injuries and weather.  It's Lee's project. Leave it be until he does it or chucks in the towel. 

[dave]

  To me regularly means every weekend when it is vaguely reasonable conditions, regularly isn't once a month or so. 

You're confusing regular with frequent. Once a year would still be regular.

Leave the guy his project. Some of us have enough trouble simply climbing solo once a week at crags 10mins from our houses, never mind doing a route that seeps or condenses, which requires a belayer, and needs you to hit a peak in your performance to do.

[lee proctor]

I agree that if someone is trying a route actively then they should be left alone -  but for 8 years? Also how often does someone have to be trying it for that to be active? In all honesty (and only Lee can answer this) has Lee really been trying it regularly? To me regularly means every weekend when it is vaguely reasonable conditions, regularly isn't once a month or so.
 

Okay, I just want to put a few facts on record:

1) I live 5 mins from Pantymwyn (Devils Gorge) and can check on conditions quite regularly

2) I run 3 businesses which all take up my time

3) I am super motivated by climbing and climb and train whenever possible

4) The gorge which in essence is a muddy hole in the ground is not everyones cup of tea to spend day after day belaying. My main climbing partner also has a project there, is equally as motivated and lives only about 2 mins from the crag.  This is great for me but unfortunately he badly broke his ankle bouldering at the gorge 4 months ago and has only just started climbing again this week.

5) On Sunday I returned from France and after a 1000 mile drive I unpacked then walked down to the gorge to check on conditions - the bottom half of all routes were condensated.

6) On Tuesday I went back down with the intention of climbing but the whole crag was soaked from the bottom down with condensation. we went elsewhere and I bust a tip pulling a nasty sharp crimp

7) On Thursday the crag was dry but due to work commitments I couldn't get down there

On Friday (ie yesterday evening) I went to the gorge and it was still dry. However very frustratingly in summer the sun hits the walls around Grand Canyon between 15:00 and 18:00  which is typically about the time you get there from work.  I had a good bash at my project but it did feel like a furnace and I was compromised a bit by having one finger tip taped due to the split earlier in the week. On the positive I felt fitter than the last time I was on the route before heading to France

I will be back there on Sunday


Now as far as I am concerned this is a pretty typical week of me trying and battling with this climb. The conditions unlike a lot of crags in the UK can be a bit of a lottery.  And trying to get the route in condition, with good skin and fitness with a belay partner is half of the challenge.

I have written this just to quell any queries along the lines of "is he really trying or working this route"

Cheers

Lee

[Davo]

Hey Lee

Fair enough, that is definitely trying regularly in my opinion! Unfortunately I don't live in Liverpool anymore otherwise I would offer my services as a belayer.

It is a bummer that the crag is so conditions dependent and that to be fair is why I haven't done much in the gorge. Every time I have walked past it has been covered in a layer of mist. Is it better in the Autumn?


All the best with getting the route done Lee, hope the epic siege comes to an end finally.

Dave

[JohnM]

How do people feel about doing someone's project but then jumping off the top without clipping the chain/top two bolts.  I know that this has happened on projects in the past and wondered whether people consider this to be poor etiquette or ok as you are preserving the first ascent?

[Luke Owens]

How do people feel about doing someone's project but then jumping off the top without clipping the chain/top two bolts.  I know that this has happened on projects in the past and wondered whether people consider this to be poor etiquette or ok as you are preserving the first ascent?

Very poor etiquette, in my opinion.

There are so many other projects/routes out there that I really don't see why anyone would feel the need to do that.

[shark]

How do people feel about doing someone's project but then jumping off the top without clipping the chain/top two bolts.  I know that this has happened on projects in the past and wondered whether people consider this to be poor etiquette or ok as you are preserving the first ascent?

I know if it happened to me I would be pretty cheesed off as that would be an ascent in all but name.

IIRC John Dunne did that on Predator (ie jumped off just before the belay) which was Steve Rhodes project at the time, but then changed his mind and claimed it anyway.

[Doylo]

If you were trying a project and someone did that, it would just take the wind out of your sails. I remember Caff having to be pulled off the top on the onsight of Simon Says when it was Pantons project.  When you're at your limit and giving it everything you just don't need it.