Grand Canyon extension - Devil's Gorge, Clwyd (Read 31957 times)

MattD · July 11, 2013, 01:59:22 pm

*emerges from the shadows*
Did the moist classic Grand Canyon the other day and was wondering if anyone knows what the script is with the extension? Had a quick look at the moves and it looks like it'll be one of the best 8a(ish) routes in the area. Is it still a project? I'd be keen to go down next week and get it done, but if it's someone's baby I'll steer clear until they've finished - don't want any "beef" with the locals! Cheers for any info.

Doylo · July 11, 2013, 02:00:33 pm

It's Lee Proctors baby. He's been trying it for 5 years. Will be a awesome Yorkshire-esque monster.

Luke Owens · July 11, 2013, 02:15:54 pm

As Doylo said it's Lee's pride and joy, hasn't it been longer than 5 years he's been trying it now though? He's getting damn close!

Doylo · July 11, 2013, 02:19:30 pm

Do it if you want to see a 14 stone ,6ft 7 man crying his eyes out!

Luke Owens · July 11, 2013, 02:21:08 pm

Quote from: Doylo on July 11, 2013, 02:19:30 pm

Do it if you want to see a 14 stone ,6ft 7 man jumping off the top of the gorge!

MattD · July 11, 2013, 05:14:53 pm

Cheers for the quick response guys! Looks like I'll be giving that one a swerve for now. I hope it doesn't take him another 5 years to get up it...

Mirf · July 11, 2013, 08:53:43 pm

:whip:I think lee should get serious, go on a Malcolm style diet and give up work ASAP.

Davo · July 15, 2013, 10:48:31 am

Hi

Had a brief look at some of the moves on this as well with Matt D. Thought Grand Canyon was brilliant and this extension would be awesome.

Is Lee actually actively trying it at the moment? Just wondering because 5 years seems like a long time for a project....

Cheers Dave

Luke Owens · July 15, 2013, 10:54:12 am

Quote from: Davo on July 15, 2013, 10:48:31 am

Hi

Had a brief look at some of the moves on this as well with Matt D. Thought Grand Canyon was brilliant and this extension would be awesome.

Is Lee actually actively trying it at the moment? Just wondering because 5 years seems like a long time for a project....

Cheers Dave

I know he was trying it earlier on this year, friend's have said he's getting very close, falling off the very top.

It's always a battle getting good conditions down there.

Davo · July 15, 2013, 11:12:11 am

Yeah conditions seem to defy explanation. We went on a boiling hot day last week and the bottom of the gorge was wet and Grand Canyon was pretty gopping. Managed to dry it up enough to redpoint though.

Would be really keen to do this route as it is amazing, close to Liverpool and not too hard.

I guess if he is still actively trying it then I will swerve it but if he isn't then I would be keen to try and do it. I know Matt probably could have done it that afternoon.

Personally I don't care about the first ascent and wouldn't want to steal this away from someone. Am just keen to do a brilliant long, enduro route that is pretty local.

Cheers Dave

petejh · July 16, 2013, 12:11:14 pm

Quote from: Davo on July 15, 2013, 11:12:11 am

Yeah conditions seem to defy explanation. We went on a boiling hot day last week and the bottom of the gorge was wet and Grand Canyon was pretty gopping. Managed to dry it up enough to redpoint though.

Would be really keen to do this route as it is amazing, close to Liverpool and not too hard.

I guess if he is still actively trying it then I will swerve it but if he isn't then I would be keen to try and do it. I know Matt probably could have done it that afternoon.

Personally I don't care about the first ascent and wouldn't want to steal this away from someone. Am just keen to do a brilliant long, enduro route that is pretty local.

Cheers Dave

If a project gets climbed when no-one's around does it make a sound?

Davo · July 16, 2013, 12:53:07 pm

Only if someone tells...

Ally Smith · July 17, 2013, 01:10:37 pm

Quote from: petejh on July 16, 2013, 12:11:14 pm

If a project gets climbed when no-one's around does it make a sound?

I heard from a well known photographer that a certain wad had already on-sighted it and thrown himself off the top without clipping the chains

Luke Owens · July 17, 2013, 01:33:27 pm

I really don't think it would be fair on Lee if someone just went and done it. He's spent a lot of time and effort on it. The route obviously means a lot to the guy if he's been trying it for so many years.

It's not like there aren't plenty of other ~8a's out there for you wads to tick in a session.

He's done so much in terms of equipping, FA's etc. around here and everyone who climbs in the Clwyd owes a debt to him in that respect. We should be encouraging him!

Also, I'm sure there are other projects at the Gorge to go at. The Echoes extension for example?

duncan · July 17, 2013, 01:45:54 pm

Quote from: Ally Smith on July 17, 2013, 01:10:37 pm

Quote from: petejh on July 16, 2013, 12:11:14 pm
If a project gets climbed when no-one's around does it make a sound?

I heard from a well known photographer that a certain wad had already on-sighted it and thrown himself off the top without clipping the chains

Is Lee aware of this? If he isn't it seems poor form to bring this to general attention.

Davo · July 18, 2013, 09:53:12 am

Quote from: Luke Owens on July 17, 2013, 01:33:27 pm

I really don't think it would be fair on Lee if someone just went and done it. He's spent a lot of time and effort on it. The route obviously means a lot to the guy if he's been trying it for so many years.

It's not like there aren't plenty of other ~8a's out there for you wads to tick in a session.

He's done so much in terms of equipping, FA's etc. around here and everyone who climbs in the Clwyd owes a debt to him in that respect. We should be encouraging him!

Also, I'm sure there are other projects at the Gorge to go at. The Echoes extension for example?

I agree with all of that and it is the reason why neither myself nor Matt seriously had a dig at doing it (admittedly I certainly couldn't have done it that night!). Personally I reckon that if someone is actively trying a route that they have bolted they have as long as they like to try and do it. I just wanted to know if someone (in this case Lee - I don't know him and haven't met him) was actively trying it. If he is fine - it is his to do.

I do kind of reckon though that if you have a long term project like this (I have been told 5 years but maybe this is an exaggeration?) then you need to be actively trying it (every weekend? or at least when conditions are good) in order to keep it closed to other people. If you are only trying it every couple of months then I don't think that is really actively trying to do it.

As I have said before I am not interested in the first ascent or naming it etc.. I really would just like a cool long enduro 8a/+ that is close to Liverpool to try - I am not a wad who crushes 8as easily and so it would be nice to have a good route to try. I wouldn't personally want to steal anyone's project and wouldn't be keen to do what was described by Ally (climb it then jump off at the chains - that is pretty poor form in my opinion).

Anyway I hope Lee gets it crushed this year - it is a brilliant route and deserves some attention.

Dave

Luke Owens · July 18, 2013, 10:24:45 am

Quote from: Davo on July 18, 2013, 09:53:12 am

Quote from: Luke Owens on July 17, 2013, 01:33:27 pm
I really don't think it would be fair on Lee if someone just went and done it. He's spent a lot of time and effort on it. The route obviously means a lot to the guy if he's been trying it for so many years.

It's not like there aren't plenty of other ~8a's out there for you wads to tick in a session.

He's done so much in terms of equipping, FA's etc. around here and everyone who climbs in the Clwyd owes a debt to him in that respect. We should be encouraging him!

Also, I'm sure there are other projects at the Gorge to go at. The Echoes extension for example?

I agree with all of that and it is the reason why neither myself nor Matt seriously had a dig at doing it (admittedly I certainly couldn't have done it that night!). Personally I reckon that if someone is actively trying a route that they have bolted they have as long as they like to try and do it. I just wanted to know if someone (in this case Lee - I don't know him and haven't met him) was actively trying it. If he is fine - it is his to do.

I do kind of reckon though that if you have a long term project like this (I have been told 5 years but maybe this is an exaggeration?) then you need to be actively trying it (every weekend? or at least when conditions are good) in order to keep it closed to other people. If you are only trying it every couple of months then I don't think that is really actively trying to do it.

As I have said before I am not interested in the first ascent or naming it etc.. I really would just like a cool long enduro 8a/+ that is close to Liverpool to try - I am not a wad who crushes 8as easily and so it would be nice to have a good route to try. I wouldn't personally want to steal anyone's project and wouldn't be keen to do what was described by Ally (climb it then jump off at the chains - that is pretty poor form in my opinion).

Anyway I hope Lee gets it crushed this year - it is a brilliant route and deserves some attention.

Dave

I didn't mean for my post to sound like a dig at you guys specifically as you said previously you'd just like to climb it when it's done. Who wouldn't, it looks awesome!

It was more aimed at the masses as I've heard about what Ally posted above before (unsure whether it's true or not - very poor form if it is true) and also I've heard plenty of people giving Lee stick about it when he's not around saying he should pull his finger out etc. Just feels a little unfair.

5 years isn't an exaggeration, infact the route is in the Clwyd Lime guide as a project and that was published in 2005, I'm not even sure who bolted the extension originally? If it was Lee it would be an 8 year project...

I really don't know how often Lee gets on it. On a personal level if I was falling off near the top I'd be there every hour god sends until it's done or at least train specifically for it.

Awkward situation as there are no written rules on projects but I see your point, it is a long time. But Lee has invested a lot of time into it, so hopefully we should see it crushed soon!

Davo · July 18, 2013, 10:31:39 am

No worries - I didn't read your post as a dig at me.

That is a long time though! I know there aren't any fixed rules about how long someone has but at some point you have to say enough and open it up to everyone else? I don't know when this point is but 5 years is a long time...

I liked the way Doylo dealt with The Brute at the Diamond. When eventually he felt it wasn't happening he gave it to a mate of his to do. Admittedly I reckon Chris could have got it done if he hadn't been scuppered by conditions so much!

Anyway I reckon if Lee is actively trying it and is close then fair enough keep it closed for another year but after that I am not honestly sure...

Dave

Doylo · July 18, 2013, 10:43:47 am

Quote from: Davo on July 18, 2013, 10:31:39 am

No worries - I didn't read your post as a dig at me.

That is a long time though! I know there aren't any fixed rules about how long someone has but at some point you have to say enough and open it up to everyone else? I don't know when this point is but 5 years is a long time...

I liked the way Doylo dealt with The Brute at the Diamond. When eventually he felt it wasn't happening he gave it to a mate of his to do. Admittedly I reckon Chris could have got it done if he hadn't been scuppered by conditions so much!

Anyway I reckon if Lee is actively trying it and is close then fair enough keep it closed for another year but after that I am not honestly sure...

Dave

I think it was more fitness than conditions Davo

I only had a semi claim to The Brute as it was a old project anyway and i'd regeared it with Neil. With it being such a (national) classic i couldn't really hang on to it for more than two seasons and the time was right to let a local beast do it. It was a bit gutting letting go of probably the best 8b in Britain but i've had some decent consolation prizes. I think it's slightly different when you've found a new line and bolted it yourself. I think Lee should get as long as he wants to finish it as he has put a lot into the area. I'm sure he wouldn't hang onto it if he didn't think he could do it. The pressure comes from it being such a good route and others want to climb it.
come on big man!

Luke Owens · July 18, 2013, 10:51:33 am

Quote from: Doylo on July 18, 2013, 10:43:47 am

I think Lee should get as long as he wants to finish it as he has put a lot into the area. I'm sure he wouldn't hang onto it if he didn't think he could do it. The pressure comes from it being such a good route and others want to climb it.
come on big man!

This was my point, he's given so much to climbing in the Clwyd. Out of curiosity do you know if Lee originally bolted the extension?

Doylo · July 18, 2013, 10:56:37 am

I can't remember.

JohnM · July 18, 2013, 11:20:41 am

Christ on a bike, it is a short limestone extension, which by all accounts is not that hard. It is not as if it would have been a massive effort to bolt that top section. Someone just do it and have done with it. Dave and Matt if you really want to do it, climb it and don't tell anyone. It would be nice to have a long 8a in that area and life if too short to be waiting around. Half a decade passes by, then another one and before you know it Dave is too grey and old to do it anyway and all he has is a life full of regrets.

petejh · July 18, 2013, 12:21:49 pm

Tricky one isn't it, Lee's a lovely bloke who's helped develop and document the Clwyd area -everyone who knows him wants to see him do his long-term GC project. The flip side is it's been closer to ten years than five, it's obviously nationally significant quality-wise, it's do-able in a sesh or two by loads of people, it's not hard to equip and its history is uncertain. None of this was an issue whilst the gorge was a mostly unknown or ignored venue. I take a bit of blame for pushing the place via my sample page on the NW lime debate.
My point of view is crags with relatively short windows like the diamond and the gorge have a number of seasons over a few years to send projects rather than a number of months in a year. Beyond a reasonable (unspecified) peroiod of time sense should prevail.
The gorge has quite a few excellent closed projects relative to number of exisitng routes, and which have all been closed for a few years at least. It's only now the place is becoming a bit more popular it's becoming a bit of a pain waiing for people to get their acts together, or do the decent thing!

BenF · July 18, 2013, 12:24:50 pm

Haha, I wish you'd say what you mean John and stop beating round the bush. You're always so tactful.

Bit like when you simply told Pete and Matt to not bother with the Frankenjura 'cos they'd get their arses kicked. Direct and honest and exactly what you think. Not sure I agree with you about Grand Canyon though, but I always enjoy your blunt approach.

Davo · July 18, 2013, 12:46:07 pm

John: I am certainly already too grey! Possibly too old as well. I agree with Ben I like your tactful approach.

In general I reckon if you bolt something it is yours to do and try for as long as you like as long as you are actively trying it and are also willing to train or diet down to get it done. Eventually though I think common sense and reasonableness has to prevail.

In terms of The Brute personally I would have held onto that one for longer but I am a greedy selfish git. Having been on Grand Canyon recently I thought it ws brilliant and easily one of the best 7b+s in the UK, there aren't that many enduro, long steep route with good holds like that around. The extension would make it absolutely stellar and a must do 8a/+.

I know this is a bit unfair on Lee as he is clearly a nice well respected guy who has put an enormous amount of effort into developing the area and I hope he doesn't take any of this badly or personally.

I guess my opinion is bluntly that the extension needs doing as it is a great route and would be an awesome 8a ish for Liverpool and other local climbers to have on their doorstep. I am not keen to wait another 5 or ten years to see it done (as John says I will be definitely to old etc..). I am happy to wait till next year to do it after lee gets it - I reckon that is reasonable. Any longer than that and I am not sure...

Once again good luck and get it done Lee

Cheers Dave