[outlawed]

Thankfully you're in a tiny minority. Nearly all route-climbers understand that a certain grace period is apt for sport routes. The grey area is how long.

well according to this forum 9+ years.

[Teaboy]

I'm not sure why people say the clock has been ticking for 8 years, until 3 years ago no one gave a stuff about this place but now everyone's making out people have been queuing up to do this route like bargain hunters at a Harrods sale. If a bloke the size of a tree falls off some deserted crag in the woods does anyone know if he's started a project or not?

[lee proctor]

I’ve just re-read this whole thread and have the following point to make.

I reckon a two hour drive in any direction from Pantymwyn will get you to North and South Wales, the Peak District and Yorkshire. Those areas must contain about 80+% of all the quality grade 8 routes in the UK, I have no idea how many routes that is but it must be a few hundred.

There have been a number of posts on this thread from individuals who appear to think it is justified to climb and claim the first ascent to a project that I equipped and have been actively working.  The route which is a 30ft extension to an existing climb is in an area that until very recently was a complete backwater. I cannot understand the “blood lust” of certain individuals on this forum with an apparent desire to “steal” my project given the hundreds of equally good hard established routes relatively close by. The only conclusion I can draw is those same individuals, and I have no idea who they are given the fact most people choose to use pseudonyms, must have done the majority of quality hard routes in the UK and therefore feel justified in some way to jump on my project!

If these individuals have genuinely climbed all those hard routes then I cannot understand why on earth they would be interested in my project at all, I am sure theyhave or could easily secure reasonable sponsorship to travel widely and climb new and existing routes of renowned quality around the world!

I have been on my route twice this week and have been making pretty good progress. I need a couple of rest days and will recommence operations.  As far as I’m concerned, and I recognise there is a selfish element to this, but I am reserving the right to climb this 30ft bit of limestone first as it matters a lot to me personally. The rest of the world can f**k off!

[Nike Air]

I guess the great appeal of this project is that its already bolted, all the work is done for you. Quite a few years back I asked Lee if this was still a closed project and he nicely explained his position. Now quite a few years have passed but I don't mind one bit. Its not stopped me driving around and finding quality things to climb and push myself.
If you really want a project why not go and get a drill and find a line that suits you. You ll find it really hard work but worth it in the end no doubt.
How would you feel though if we all started hounding you to do it even though you felt you were close??
You never know this may be just what Lee needs to make him realise what a cool line he is trying and therefore get it sent soon.
Project nicking has happened alot in the past but remember it never gave whoever did it a good name in the end...

[Stu Littlefair]

Steve mac has made quite a name for himself climbing routes other people bolted. Just being awkward.

[shark]

Thanks for respecting my Devils Gorge project, As Chris stated I've been trying this pretty aggressively for the the last four years and its now tantalizingly close!

Lee

Today

I have been on my route twice this week and have been making pretty good progress.

Know the feeling.

Hope this thread gives you that extra%

[mrjonathanr]

A very UKC  keyboard-warrior vibe from some here.
I cannot see why they don't either respect the man's project out of basic consideration, or just go and do it.

If the argument that the FA is of no consequence they might succeed in doing it without anyone realising anyway.

Pontificating about the right to poach is just tedious posturing.

[Monolith]

A question - do a few bolts need to have gone into a wall to gain a claim to a line or can a boulder problem be a closed project?

Lee, I don't know you but am relatively local to Pantymwyn. All the very best in your efforts to get this done and may your victory glass of whatever wine, beer or spirit taste all the more sweeter.

[shark]

A question - do a few bolts need to have gone into a wall to gain a claim to a line

Gibson once went round Chee Dale putting a couple of bolts in to claim various gaps and then left them. 

His claim to them was regarded as very tenuous and some or all got climbed by others.

[petejh]

 

[lee proctor]

The gorge is totally gopped out again today with condensation and was soaked yesterday 

[saltbeef]

weak excuse

[outlawed]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

you might want to amend that. Just noticed this karma. Been given negative for having an opinion. And been called a helmet by someone named after a character from children's cartoon land before time.

Same shit, different forum? Opinions not welcome, they may offend the locals.

Like i said lee. Dont get this closed project thing. I've no intention of 'stealing' it. Wasn't posturing. Good luck with it. Just trying to say whoever does FA, it wouldn't diminish your achievement.

[shark]

weak excuse

Nah, diversionary tactics

[Adam Lincoln]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

[outlawed]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

 'normal people'? That's am interesting concept. I take it Im not normal then!? So what are these normal people? Can you describe them, apart from they are those that share your point of view?

[Adam Lincoln]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

 'normal people'? That's am interesting concept. I take it Im not normal then!? So what are these normal people? Can you describe them, apart from they are those that share your point of view?

Just people with decent morals thats all. Lets not keep going back to the point of view/or opinion. You are in the minority here, which is fine. You are also entitled to your opinion. Hell you can even express that opinion on an internet forum. But, and here is my point, don't start complaining if people start giving you bad karma points. They too are entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is that your morals are low.

[outlawed]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

 'normal people'? That's am interesting concept. I take it Im not normal then!? So what are these normal people? Can you describe them, apart from they are those that share your point of view?

Just people with decent morals thats all. Lets not keep going back to the point of view/or opinion. You are in the minority here, which is fine. You are also entitled to your opinion. Hell you can even express that opinion on an internet forum. But, and here is my point, don't start complaining if people start giving you bad karma points. They too are entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is that your morals are low.

we're still there with the normal people comment. You've now clarified that to ' people with decent morals'. Who are you to judge what's moral?

So Im abnormal and immoral?

[Adam Lincoln]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

 'normal people'? That's am interesting concept. I take it Im not normal then!? So what are these normal people? Can you describe them, apart from they are those that share your point of view?

Just people with decent morals thats all. Lets not keep going back to the point of view/or opinion. You are in the minority here, which is fine. You are also entitled to your opinion. Hell you can even express that opinion on an internet forum. But, and here is my point, don't start complaining if people start giving you bad karma points. They too are entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is that your morals are low.

we're still there with the normal people comment. You've now clarified that to ' people with decent morals'. Who are you to judge what's moral?

So Im abnormal and immoral?

Well, there is a moral bar, and that is that you don't steal peoples projects. You have suggested its ok. Hence, you have low morals. You can dress it up any way you like. But thats what it boils down too. Simple. I am done arguing with you anyway. Good bye.

[outlawed]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

 'normal people'? That's am interesting concept. I take it Im not normal then!? So what are these normal people? Can you describe them, apart from they are those that share your point of view?

Just people with decent morals thats all. Lets not keep going back to the point of view/or opinion. You are in the minority here, which is fine. You are also entitled to your opinion. Hell you can even express that opinion on an internet forum. But, and here is my point, don't start complaining if people start giving you bad karma points. They too are entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is that your morals are low.

we're still there with the normal people comment. You've now clarified that to ' people with decent morals'. Who are you to judge what's moral?

So Im abnormal and immoral?

Well, there is a moral bar, and that is that you don't steal peoples projects. You have suggested its ok. Hence, you have low morals. You can dress it up any way you like. But thats what it boils down too. Simple. I am done arguing with you anyway. Good bye.

you brought up normal people and decentt morals. Unsustainable stereotypes and arguments i guess.

[Somebody's Fool]

Could you not just nail this project down, Lee?

This isn't yoof speak for actually doing it (hook that shit up, smash it in etc etc etc), but actually physically nailing it down to deter the Liverpudlians stealing it. As loathe as I am to resort to stereotypes.

[outlawed]

Could you not just nail this project down, Lee?

This isn't yoof speak for actually doing it (hook that shit up, smash it in etc etc etc), but actually physically nailing it down to deter the Liverpudlians stealing it. As loathe as I am to resort to stereotypes.

Straight out of Toxteth!

[outlawed]

I've no view to express - other than the way this thread has progressed is a tribute to UKB. Views expressed both ways - emotions conveyed and all in all a good debate. Take note t'other channel...

Been given negative for having an opinion.

No, not just any opinion. Negative karma for going against what normal, considerate people would consider good manners/etiquette.

 'normal people'? That's am interesting concept. I take it Im not normal then!? So what are these normal people? Can you describe them, apart from they are those that share your point of view?

Just people with decent morals thats all. Lets not keep going back to the point of view/or opinion. You are in the minority here, which is fine. You are also entitled to your opinion. Hell you can even express that opinion on an internet forum. But, and here is my point, don't start complaining if people start giving you bad karma points. They too are entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is that your morals are low.

we're still there with the normal people comment. You've now clarified that to ' people with decent morals'. Who are you to judge what's moral?

So Im abnormal and immoral?

Well, there is a moral bar, and that is that you don't steal peoples projects. You have suggested its ok. Hence, you have low morals. You can dress it up any way you like. But thats what it boils down too. Simple. I am done arguing with you anyway. Good bye.

as it doesn't seem i can answer you in kind. Fuck you too!

[Doylo]

Could you not just nail this project down, Lee?

This isn't yoof speak for actually doing it (hook that shit up, smash it in etc etc etc), but actually physically nailing it down to deter the Liverpudlians stealing it. As loathe as I am to resort to stereotypes.

Straight out of Toxteth!

The accepted etiquette amongst the vast majority of climbers is that if someone bolts and cleans a new line they get first dibs on trying to do the first ascent of that particular route.  You are in what i believe is a small minority in thinking that bolting something gives someone no claim over that piece of rock, you've gone further in saying that first ascents don't actually matter.  This is your opinion and you've stated it more than once.  There's no need to state it again because you're not going to change the mind of most people who respect this etiquette which exists in the majority of new routing scenes.  The folk having a go at Lee are doing so because of the length of time he's been on the route.   

[petejh]

Exactly.

Outlawed have you got anything remotely interesting to add or are you a just going to endlessly regurgitate your bollocks opinion about how bolting new lines doesn't give anyone any rights over them? Because if you are -
we got it the first time,
your opinion is welcome and duly disagreed with by well-established consensus,
saying 'I don't get it' makes you look thick.