[Luke Owens]

Got on it again last night, started the redpoints:

1RP - Fell off the technical crux about 9 moves in.
2RP - Fell off the big flake before the final throw as I couldn't get the last draw clipped - School boy error, needed a longer draw in it.
3RP - Fell off the technical crux about 9 moves in again.
4RP - Flew up it made and the final throw, latched it but pumped out bringing my feet up as my fingers uncurled/arm melted.
5RP - Did the same as my 4th RP.

Looks like It'll go for sure. Great to be able to get so close on a 5th Redpoint in an evening session.

No rest on it and no time to chalk up. Feels good just blasting up it. Psyched!

[davej]

good effort

[Rocksteady]

Interesting thread - good luck on the redpoint Luke, sounds like you are very close.

I think the question in the title is quite an important one when trying to improve at climbing. No doubt spending lots of time onsighting develops a bigger variety of movement schemas, which is part of being a better climber. But practising a redpoint perfects a particular set of movements, so that you really engrain those techniques. Is that also part of being a better climber?

Probably a bit of both is best for your climbing, in the long run. For me I'm impressed by hard sport redpoints and hard trad onsights.

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

[Sasquatch]

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

Agree with everything you said before this, but I've always felt the opposite.  For me, when I'm time poor, such as on a trip, I generally spend the bulk of it onsighting and getting on everything I can and spend very little trying to redpoint something. The same when I'm at home.  I only work rp when I know I have to time to commit to something.  Otehrwise I always feel stressed about the outcome, as I won't know if I really gave it my all....

[Rocksteady]

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

Agree with everything you said before this, but I've always felt the opposite.  For me, when I'm time poor, such as on a trip, I generally spend the bulk of it onsighting and getting on everything I can and spend very little trying to redpoint something. The same when I'm at home.  I only work rp when I know I have to time to commit to something.  Otehrwise I always feel stressed about the outcome, as I won't know if I really gave it my all....

Interesting, I get way more stressed about the idea of an onsight near my limit and it takes me ages to commit to moves etc. etc. I suppose I'm talking about a redpoint at 'quick redpoint' level, that is too hard for me to onsight but which I'll be confident I'll get in a session or two.

[Sasquatch]

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

Agree with everything you said before this, but I've always felt the opposite.  For me, when I'm time poor, such as on a trip, I generally spend the bulk of it onsighting and getting on everything I can and spend very little trying to redpoint something. The same when I'm at home.  I only work rp when I know I have to time to commit to something.  Otehrwise I always feel stressed about the outcome, as I won't know if I really gave it my all....

Interesting, I get way more stressed about the idea of an onsight near my limit and it takes me ages to commit to moves etc. etc. I suppose I'm talking about a redpoint at 'quick redpoint' level, that is too hard for me to onsight but which I'll be confident I'll get in a session or two.

So this is why I try for the onsight, and if not then it's at a grade I should be able to rp, 2nd or 3rd go. Little stress.  For me my onsight limit and quick RP are about the same. 

[jwi]

So this is why I try for the onsight, and if not then it's at a grade I should be able to rp, 2nd or 3rd go. Little stress.  For me my onsight limit and quick RP are about the same.

Yeah, best o/s grade and quick RP grade differs about one half grade for most people who are not redpoint-specialists.

[krymson]

I think the question in the title is quite an important one when trying to improve at climbing. No doubt spending lots of time onsighting develops a bigger variety of movement schemas, which is part of being a better climber. But practising a redpoint perfects a particular set of movements, so that you really engrain those techniques. Is that also part of being a better climber?

Rocksteady i think you bring up a great point - it's important to nail down new movements so they become engrained.

For me I find it effective to do so by repeating climbs or problems I have sent before - learning to do hard moves and linkups well even while tired or fatigued or under less than ideal circumstances really wires  those moves and engrams in my mind and body.

The problem i see with using an extended redpoint process to nail down movements is that you will nail down all the moves up except for the crux, but there is a good chance you are reinforcing failure on the crux moves -- that seems less than ideal.

Limiting the number of attempts on a low percentage move or linkup seems to make more sense to me from a learning perspective, and i think is what coaches like Douglas hunter and Udo Neumann seem to advise. Plus it's a lot less frustrating for you and your belayer!

[Luke Owens]

Some great advice guys, Thank you!

I'm time restricted in a sense I work full time and have a 7 month year old son (The crag in question isn't suitable for kids unfortunately). I get out 3/4 times a week (weather permitting).

Twice with friends where I can get up to this crag which is 15 minutes from home and it's easy to get a belayer.

The other two times I go out once with my girlfriend doing easy stuff for her to top rope and usually get in a hard on-sight or 2 at the end of the session. So limited to crags with easier graded routes.

Then once out with my son which is limited to where I can take a pushchair! So usually bouldering trying hard stuff and doing repeats.

I think I have all area's covered for improvement and I'm happy with my progress so far.

Rocksteady i think you bring up a great point - it's important to nail down new movements so they become engrained.

For me I find it effective to do so by repeating climbs or problems I have sent before - learning to do hard moves and linkups well even while tired or fatigued or under less than ideal circumstances really wires  those moves and engrams in my mind and body.

I agree that repeating climbs and problems is important. I got on some problems I hadn't done since last year yesterday and found them hard and couldn't repeat two of them. I know I haven't got weaker It was like my body had unlearnt the correct movements!

[Luke Owens]

I've got a new 7b project, I've climbed this grade before but the style of this one is not what I'm used to. No really hard moves but ~15 meters without a real rest, sustained!

I linked it from the floor to a finger jug (pumpy "rest") about 4 meters up, 6 moves. Then rested on the rope and linked from there for ~10 moves to the final dyno. Once latched the route is jugs to the belay.

It's a route that if I was a lot fitter I could probably on-sight as I worked and did all the moves in isolation first go.

So my question, as this is a fitness/PE issue do I (As well as the feet on fingerboard stuff I'm doing):

a. Keep trying to link sections/start redpointing and get fit on the route?
b. Go around ticking multiple easier routes to get fit, then come back to my project?

I guess I'm trying to avoid an all out siege...

I'm aware of this thread on redpoint tactics:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=17748.0

Just looking for something a little more specific.

Cheers

Bit of an update, did the route last night. Psyched!

Felt solid and went without a hitch in the end. I feel like I've improved a lot over the last month. Definitely not getting anywhere near as pumped on routes.

It took 3 evening sessions in total. Weather has stopped me getting back sooner.

After initially saying it has no rest spot on the route, when I did it I actually rested/shaked all the way up (5 times in total) in complete control. Great feeling!

7b+ next!

[andy popp]

Nice one. I don't think you'll have any trouble moving to 7b+ (if you haven't already  ). IPJF is right next door!

[SA Chris]

I knew it! Good work, time to up the ante.

[Luke Owens]

Nice one. I don't think you'll have any trouble moving to 7b+ (if you haven't already  ). IPJF is right next door!

Never been on a 7b+! IPJF is next in line...

Although i've heard a few people say it's easier than Barrance and should really be 7b so i'm not sure if it would be a proper 7b+ tick!

Either way it's next as it just looks awesome!

I knew it! Good work, time to up the ante.

Cheers Chris! I guess the answer in the end was "To Redpoint"!

[SA Chris]

When in doubt redpoint it out.

[Doylo]

Nice one Luke. Get on the bandits. One of the best there and will never be downgraded

[Luke Owens]

Nice one Luke. Get on the bandits. One of the best there and will never be downgraded

Cheers Doylo, heard Bandits is nails for 7b+ but a great route. What's it like? Sustained I'm guessing!

I belayed Spidey on it last year and he made it look 8b...

[Doylo]

Nice one Luke. Get on the bandits. One of the best there and will never be downgraded

Cheers Doylo, heard Bandits is nails for 7b+ but a great route. What's it like? Sustained I'm guessing!

I belayed Spidey on it last year and he made it look 8b...

Was a while ago so can't remember much apart from its sustained. Well if people say that get on Judy then. Fine feathered fink seemed ok too

[petejh]

Another excellent 7b+ is Grand Canyon in Devil's Gorge, should be drying out around now. Soft too, although definitely at the pumpy end of the spectrum.

[Ally Smith]

Well done Luke!

Sounds like some massive progress in the last 6 weeks if you can now shake out where previously you were getting pumped out. Was it the foot-on campus'ing that made the difference you think?

BTW. Grand Canyon was gopping on Saturday evening, but that place defies all conditions science so it might actually be dry!

ps. Let me know if it is dry - some competition might be just the thing to get Lee to finish off his 10year siege of the extension...

[Luke Owens]

Well done Luke!

Sounds like some massive progress in the last 6 weeks if you can now shake out where previously you were getting pumped out. Was it the foot-on campus'ing that made the difference you think?

BTW. Grand Canyon was gopping on Saturday evening, but that place defies all conditions science so it might actually be dry!

ps. Let me know if it is dry - some competition might be just the thing to get Lee to finish off his 10year siege of the extension...

Cheers Ally, the feet on fingerboard/campusing has helped me massively! That combined with just getting out redpointing routes and a few odd on-sighting sessions.

I've figured out in the last few months I definitely benefit a lot from resting more than I used too. I used to have 3+ days on and now I'm just doing 1 on 1 off (or 2 on at a push) and seem to improve more.

Getting out this evening, was supposed to be heading to Pinfold, weather looks shocking. Don't know whether to risk the Gorge or bail to the coast...

A friend of mine has belayed Lee on his project recently and said he's getting very very close so hopefully this year will be the year!

[Ally Smith]

A friend of mine has belayed Lee on his project recently and said he's getting very very close so hopefully this year will be the year!

A likely story!!!

[Luke Owens]

A short video of me doing the route that sparked the original question...

[Luke Owens]

Following on from my experience with the above route I have a new project...

...and I was wondering what causes you to get "powered out" on a route as opposed to pumped to the point of falling off?

All the moves on my new project go easily in isolation, on redpoint I climb fine up until a point and the next minute I'm off, no pump just no power left. Strange feeling, I know I'll break through this soon but I was just curious if anyone knew what causes this "powered out" feeling, or more to the point what is it pointing to a lack of?

I've heard plenty of people say they weren't pumped on a route but just didn't have anything left to make an easy move all of a sudden, but I've never thought to much into it until now.

Cheers

[T_B]

I was just curious if anyone knew what causes this "powered out" feeling, or more to the point what is it pointing to a lack of?

Er, power?

Seriously. It's power-endurance innit? Get yourself on a circuit board and work out a circuit of 15 - 25 moves, that you can't link initially in a oner. Then work away at completing it, missing out the first few moves and working backwards until you can do it. Then put on a harder, cruxier finish and hey presto, you have Power Endurance.

[biscuit]

AFAIK it's when the moves are too intense.

It's the difference between doing lots of moves that are not hard but are not easy = burning pump that eventually makes your fingers un curl with forearms solid and a short sequence ( less than 10 ) that you could do all the moves in isolation but you can't put them together. You run out of the bodys quick release energy in the forearms and can't do any more moves at that intensity.

Like the difference between 800m and 100m in athletics. One is not all that hard but because it goes on for so long you end up being sick. The other is much more intense and once you reach top speed you can't maintain it for long and you fade.

That was much longer than i intended and has probably confused you more. Sorry.