[Luke Owens]

I've got a new 7b project, I've climbed this grade before but the style of this one is not what I'm used to. No really hard moves but ~15 meters without a real rest, sustained!

I linked it from the floor to a finger jug (pumpy "rest") about 4 meters up, 6 moves. Then rested on the rope and linked from there for ~10 moves to the final dyno. Once latched the route is jugs to the belay.

It's a route that if I was a lot fitter I could probably on-sight as I worked and did all the moves in isolation first go.

So my question, as this is a fitness/PE issue do I (As well as the feet on fingerboard stuff I'm doing):

a. Keep trying to link sections/start redpointing and get fit on the route?
b. Go around ticking multiple easier routes to get fit, then come back to my project?

I guess I'm trying to avoid an all out siege...

I'm aware of this thread on redpoint tactics:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=17748.0

Just looking for something a little more specific.

Cheers

[cheque]

Not sure what the advantage of option b would be if you've already done all the moves. I'd just keep working on it 'til you do it.

[Doylo]

I've got a new 7b project, I've climbed this grade before but the style of this one is not what I'm used to. No really hard moves but ~15 meters without a real rest, sustained!

I linked it from the floor to a finger jug (pumpy "rest") about 4 meters up, 6 moves. Then rested on the rope and linked from there for ~10 moves to the final dyno. Once latched the route is jugs to the belay.

It's a route that if I was a lot fitter I could probably on-sight as I worked and did all the moves in isolation first go.

So my question, as this is a fitness/PE issue do I (As well as the feet on fingerboard stuff I'm doing):

a. Keep trying to link sections/start redpointing and get fit on the route?
b. Go around ticking multiple easier routes to get fit, then come back to my project?

I guess I'm trying to avoid an all out siege...

I'm aware of this thread on redpoint tactics:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=17748.0

Just looking for something a little more specific.

Cheers

You've done it in massive overlaps so definitely just keep redpointing. And when your're not there keep doing pumpy routes. Which route is it?

[Teaboy]

If its local and you can get be belayers use it to train on. Start taking a tactical rest a couple of bolts up and then try and linking from there to the top.

[Luke Owens]

Not sure what the advantage of option b would be if you've already done all the moves. I'd just keep working on it 'til you do it.

I usually go for redpoint straight away once I've done all the moves but this route is more sustained than anything I've ever done.

Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on whether it would be more beneficial to go around doing other stuff getting fit. Then come back to the project fitter and possibly have an easier time redpointing it.

You've done it in massive overlaps so definitely just keep redpointing. And when you're not there keep doing pumpy routes. Which route is it?

Cheers, I guess the overlaps I did were pretty substantial. The route is Walking With Barrance at Dinbren. Awesome route!

[Doylo]

Not sure what the advantage of option b would be if you've already done all the moves. I'd just keep working on it 'til you do it.

I usually go for redpoint straight away once I've done all the moves but this route is more sustained than anything I've ever done.

Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on whether it would be more beneficial to go around doing other stuff getting fit. Then come back to the project fitter and possibly have an easier time redpointing it.

You've done it in massive overlaps so definitely just keep redpointing. And when you're not there keep doing pumpy routes. Which route is it?

Cheers, I guess the overlaps I did were pretty substantial. The route is Walking With Barrance at Dinbren. Awesome route!

Psyche from the ground counts for a lot too.  You're not going to go there every climbing day so just make sure you get a pump when at other crags. Sounds like you're pretty close. Ty Newydd tomorrow?

[SA Chris]

Surely if you rested on the rope at the "rest" it's just a case of getting better at recovering there, getting a bit more efficient on the top section / getting it wired / milking it for any beta you can and then going for the redpoints?

[Teaboy]

The route is Walking With Barrance at Dinbren. Awesome route!

It is, better and harder than I Punched Judy First (which may suit you better if you've not done it).  Once you've got knackered trying that there's plenty of similar stuff nearby to TR as a trainng exercise to get fit and finish off your session.

[Luke Owens]

Psyche from the ground counts for a lot too.  You're not going to go there every climbing day so just make sure you get a pump when at other crags. Sounds like you're pretty close. Ty Newydd tomorrow?

Out this eve locally bouldering then out Saturday evening as I'm down Colwyn Bay anyway. Psyched for Ty Newydd if you're around?

Surely if you rested on the rope at the "rest" it's just a case of getting better at recovering there, getting a bit more efficient on the top section / getting it wired / milking it for any beta you can and then going for the redpoints?

Yeah, the recovery there is an issue. It is an obvious rest spot but I don't seem to be able to get anything back on it. Maybe a quick couple of shakes then I'd have to crack on.

I'm possibly over thinking the whole thing and I'll probably not get as pumped as I think I'm going to with a bit of luck!

It is, better and harder than I Punched Judy First (which may suit you better if you've not done it).  Once you've got knackered trying that there's plenty of similar stuff nearby to TR as a trainng exercise to get fit and finish off your session.

Really? Barrance get's 7b and IPJF get's 7b+?

IPJF was next on my list after Barrance. Never tried it!

All I've done in the 7's on the left wing is Technicolour, Orgasmatron (Aided start) & Hot Stuff.

Any recommendations would be appreciated. It's my local crag, 15 minutes from my house, projects galore!

[andy popp]

I was under the impression* that WWB lost something in the middle a few years ago making it a touch harder? I did it the session after I did IPJF and thought they were the same grade - IPJF is probably a bit more bouldery.

* from someone who'd done it several times over the years.

[Doylo]

Psyche from the ground counts for a lot too.  You're not going to go there every climbing day so just make sure you get a pump when at other crags. Sounds like you're pretty close. Ty Newydd tomorrow?

Can't do sat. Done most the 7's but not done Extreme Ways which looks like one of the best. Bandits is obviously a classic too.

[andy popp]

date=1366882914]

All I've done in the 7's on the left wing is Technicolour, Orgasmatron (Aided start) & Hot Stuff.

Any recommendations would be appreciated. It's my local crag, 15 minutes from my house, projects galore!

I thought Fire and Ice were both really good.

[Ally Smith]

I agree with the previous comments; if you've done the route in such big sections it's time to get redpointing. You shouldn't be too far off doing it. Sounds like your foot-on-campusing sessions have done you some good. Keep these ticking over to keep the volume up whilst you're having redpoints and I think you should progress to 7b+ with ease!

Also agree with Andy's comments; i did WWB late last year and thought it fairly cheeky for 7b. Top of the grade even? Fire & Ice are other good routes to do.

I'm keen to open an account at Dinbren this year. Are you heading out again next week?

[IanP]

date=1366882914]
I thought Fire and Ice were both really good.

Fire and Ice are both worthwhile with the righthand one (Fire?) being the better imo.   IPJF is very good and probably at the low end of 7b+ with not a great difference in difficulty compared to WWB though it is steeper and more powerful style of climbing.   Extreme Ways is great, quite a few people seem to think its soft for 7c and may be 7b+ though I didn't find it easy and ended up skipping a clip on the final headwall giving an bit of extra excitement.

[Doylo]

I'm keen to open an account at Dinbren this year. Are you heading out again next week?

I could be keen for a evening hit

[Teaboy]

IPJF was next on my list after Barrance. Never tried it!

All I've done in the 7's on the left wing is Technicolour, Orgasmatron (Aided start) & Hot Stuff.

Any recommendations would be appreciated. It's my local crag, 15 minutes from my house, projects galore!

Well you've done the worst of the 7s so that's good! Looking on the UKC database the stars assigned there look correct except Baby Crusher is better (and easier, theme developing here!) than Fat Boys. If you do get on Extreme Ways do the E3 crack start rather than the right hand start unless you share Big Lee's wingspan, it's still the crux!

[Luke Owens]

I agree with the previous comments; if you've done the route in such big sections it's time to get redpointing. You shouldn't be too far off doing it. Sounds like your foot-on-campusing sessions have done you some good. Keep these ticking over to keep the volume up whilst you're having redpoints and I think you should progress to 7b+ with ease!

Also agree with Andy's comments; i did WWB late last year and thought it fairly cheeky for 7b. Top of the grade even? Fire & Ice are other good routes to do.

I'm keen to open an account at Dinbren this year. Are you heading out again next week?

I would be really happy to progress to 7b+ soon, it feels within reach now which is great.

I'll be out at Dinbren next week for sure, good to see people psyched for the place!

Well you've done the worst of the 7s so that's good! Looking on the UKC database the stars assigned there look correct except Baby Crusher is better (and easier, theme developing here!) than Fat Boys. If you do get on Extreme Ways do the E3 crack start rather than the right hand start unless you share Big Lee's wingspan, it's still the crux!

I am keen to try Baby Crusher at some point in view of eventually doing Dyperspace as a first 7c but I didn't know if BC was anygood.

I think i'll leave Extreme Ways for awhile until i've ticked a few other 7b+'s, i've heard it's great though!

[IanP]

If you do get on Extreme Ways do the E3 crack start rather than the right hand start unless you share Big Lee's wingspan, it's still the crux!

Three of us of varying degrees of tallness from 5'7'' to 6' did the rh start without any big spans required,  it feels a bit unlikely on first acquaintance but a bit of heel / toe trickery lets you use the sloping crimps to make a move to the juggy holds at the top of the crack.

[Luke Owens]

Following on from the Dinbren talk. Heading there with a mate on Thursday eve if anyones keen, come along!

[thrashhard]

I've got a new 7b project, I've climbed this grade before but the style of this one is not what I'm used to. No really hard moves but ~15 meters without a real rest, sustained!

Don´t get me wrong but is this a metric system issue and you converted something wrong?
15 Meters is really short and isn´t what i would call a endurance-route. It´s more like the lenght of routes my more boulder oriented mates are always looking for because they lack of endurance.

[davej]

I'm going to start going in the next week or so on a thurs eve from chester might see you up there. Good luck with the redpoint

[Luke Owens]

Don´t get me wrong but is this a metric system issue and you converted something wrong?
15 Meters is really short and isn´t what i would call a endurance-route. It´s more like the lenght of routes my more boulder oriented mates are always looking for because they lack of endurance.

As you say "Lack of endurance" is what I have. It's a Power Enduance route.

I'm going to start going in the next week or so on a thurs eve from chester might see you up there. Good luck with the redpoint

Thanks Dave, see you up there sometime!

[krymson]

It's a route that if I was a lot fitter I could probably on-sight as I worked and did all the moves in isolation first go.

So my question, as this is a fitness/PE issue do I (As well as the feet on fingerboard stuff I'm doing):

a. Keep trying to link sections/start redpointing and get fit on the route?
b. Go around ticking multiple easier routes to get fit, then come back to my project?

I guess I'm trying to avoid an all out siege...

I'm aware of this thread on redpoint tactics:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=17748.0

Just looking for something a little more specific.

Cheers

It depends on your goals but in general, I disagree with everyone else and think b is better for your long term climbing.

If you think there is something the route can teach you  or If you think you can send it in the next 2-3 attempts by all means have it.

Otherwise, if you look at Ondra or other good onsighters like Megos
http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/alex-megos-hard-onsight-climbing/

Their entire focus is more on getting more experience on different types of rock, getting the engrams and fitness and training their route reading, decision making, etc., not really on projecting as much. They are focused more on achieving skills and competency, rather than concrete achievements.

Long term this approach seems to make more sense.

Of course as recreational climbers it feels damn good to nab a climb you've really fought for, and it could make for a good story at the pub

But personally I feel being able to onsight a higher grade in the first place is more badass.

[Luke Owens]

It depends on your goals but in general, I disagree with everyone else and think b is better for your long term climbing.

If you think there is something the route can teach you  or If you think you can send it in the next 2-3 attempts by all means have it.

Otherwise, if you look at Ondra or other good onsighters like Megos
http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/alex-megos-hard-onsight-climbing/

Their entire focus is more on getting more experience on different types of rock, getting the engrams and fitness and training their route reading, decision making, etc., not really on projecting as much. They are focused more on achieving skills and competency, rather than concrete achievements.

Long term this approach seems to make more sense.

Of course as recreational climbers it feels damn good to nab a climb you've really fought for, and it could make for a good story at the pub

But personally I feel being able to onsight a higher grade in the first place is more badass.

Thanks, some great advice. I remember reading about Ondra saying he would rather go around getting fitter etc. than sieging a route for a long time. In view of going back to the route in the future and sending it quicker.

I quite like the redpointing process so I think I'll mix it up. I'm going out to do some on-sighting this eve then I'll get back on the project on Thursday. I guess this satisfies both sides of my original question.

I agree with a really good on-sight being more of an achievement!

[Sasquatch]

Be careful looking at the pros and how they view things and what they've said.  As a newer climber it can be difficult to understand what a project menas.  I've heard newbies talk about seiging a route and come to find out they worked on it for three days.  Then you've got old timers like myself who've had projects of 12-15 years.  The key is how you look at the project and how you view improvement on it. 

I've always used my two hands as a barometer.  The first hand is the number of sessions it takes me to have a real assessment of whether I can do it or not.  The second hand is how many more before I should finish it.  if I haven't after 10, go back to (b) above and get better/fitter/stronger and come back to it.  I find severely diminishing returns after 10 sessions.  Mental blocks, wrong ingrams, and lack of belief creep in and are hard to overcome.  Taking a break resets these.  Plus, I can't ever really get more than ten sessions in a season

[Luke Owens]

Got on it again last night, started the redpoints:

1RP - Fell off the technical crux about 9 moves in.
2RP - Fell off the big flake before the final throw as I couldn't get the last draw clipped - School boy error, needed a longer draw in it.
3RP - Fell off the technical crux about 9 moves in again.
4RP - Flew up it made and the final throw, latched it but pumped out bringing my feet up as my fingers uncurled/arm melted.
5RP - Did the same as my 4th RP.

Looks like It'll go for sure. Great to be able to get so close on a 5th Redpoint in an evening session.

No rest on it and no time to chalk up. Feels good just blasting up it. Psyched!

[davej]

good effort

[Rocksteady]

Interesting thread - good luck on the redpoint Luke, sounds like you are very close.

I think the question in the title is quite an important one when trying to improve at climbing. No doubt spending lots of time onsighting develops a bigger variety of movement schemas, which is part of being a better climber. But practising a redpoint perfects a particular set of movements, so that you really engrain those techniques. Is that also part of being a better climber?

Probably a bit of both is best for your climbing, in the long run. For me I'm impressed by hard sport redpoints and hard trad onsights.

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

[Sasquatch]

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

Agree with everything you said before this, but I've always felt the opposite.  For me, when I'm time poor, such as on a trip, I generally spend the bulk of it onsighting and getting on everything I can and spend very little trying to redpoint something. The same when I'm at home.  I only work rp when I know I have to time to commit to something.  Otehrwise I always feel stressed about the outcome, as I won't know if I really gave it my all....

[Rocksteady]

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

Agree with everything you said before this, but I've always felt the opposite.  For me, when I'm time poor, such as on a trip, I generally spend the bulk of it onsighting and getting on everything I can and spend very little trying to redpoint something. The same when I'm at home.  I only work rp when I know I have to time to commit to something.  Otehrwise I always feel stressed about the outcome, as I won't know if I really gave it my all....

Interesting, I get way more stressed about the idea of an onsight near my limit and it takes me ages to commit to moves etc. etc. I suppose I'm talking about a redpoint at 'quick redpoint' level, that is too hard for me to onsight but which I'll be confident I'll get in a session or two.

[Sasquatch]

If you're time-poor and/or live far from the rock I think redpointing is a more efficient way of doing moves that test you and ticking routes that satisfy you. If you have the time, doing a lot of onsighting is probably the better path to being a good all-round climber.

Agree with everything you said before this, but I've always felt the opposite.  For me, when I'm time poor, such as on a trip, I generally spend the bulk of it onsighting and getting on everything I can and spend very little trying to redpoint something. The same when I'm at home.  I only work rp when I know I have to time to commit to something.  Otehrwise I always feel stressed about the outcome, as I won't know if I really gave it my all....

Interesting, I get way more stressed about the idea of an onsight near my limit and it takes me ages to commit to moves etc. etc. I suppose I'm talking about a redpoint at 'quick redpoint' level, that is too hard for me to onsight but which I'll be confident I'll get in a session or two.

So this is why I try for the onsight, and if not then it's at a grade I should be able to rp, 2nd or 3rd go. Little stress.  For me my onsight limit and quick RP are about the same. 

[jwi]

So this is why I try for the onsight, and if not then it's at a grade I should be able to rp, 2nd or 3rd go. Little stress.  For me my onsight limit and quick RP are about the same.

Yeah, best o/s grade and quick RP grade differs about one half grade for most people who are not redpoint-specialists.

[krymson]

I think the question in the title is quite an important one when trying to improve at climbing. No doubt spending lots of time onsighting develops a bigger variety of movement schemas, which is part of being a better climber. But practising a redpoint perfects a particular set of movements, so that you really engrain those techniques. Is that also part of being a better climber?

Rocksteady i think you bring up a great point - it's important to nail down new movements so they become engrained.

For me I find it effective to do so by repeating climbs or problems I have sent before - learning to do hard moves and linkups well even while tired or fatigued or under less than ideal circumstances really wires  those moves and engrams in my mind and body.

The problem i see with using an extended redpoint process to nail down movements is that you will nail down all the moves up except for the crux, but there is a good chance you are reinforcing failure on the crux moves -- that seems less than ideal.

Limiting the number of attempts on a low percentage move or linkup seems to make more sense to me from a learning perspective, and i think is what coaches like Douglas hunter and Udo Neumann seem to advise. Plus it's a lot less frustrating for you and your belayer!

[Luke Owens]

Some great advice guys, Thank you!

I'm time restricted in a sense I work full time and have a 7 month year old son (The crag in question isn't suitable for kids unfortunately). I get out 3/4 times a week (weather permitting).

Twice with friends where I can get up to this crag which is 15 minutes from home and it's easy to get a belayer.

The other two times I go out once with my girlfriend doing easy stuff for her to top rope and usually get in a hard on-sight or 2 at the end of the session. So limited to crags with easier graded routes.

Then once out with my son which is limited to where I can take a pushchair! So usually bouldering trying hard stuff and doing repeats.

I think I have all area's covered for improvement and I'm happy with my progress so far.

Rocksteady i think you bring up a great point - it's important to nail down new movements so they become engrained.

For me I find it effective to do so by repeating climbs or problems I have sent before - learning to do hard moves and linkups well even while tired or fatigued or under less than ideal circumstances really wires  those moves and engrams in my mind and body.

I agree that repeating climbs and problems is important. I got on some problems I hadn't done since last year yesterday and found them hard and couldn't repeat two of them. I know I haven't got weaker It was like my body had unlearnt the correct movements!

[Luke Owens]

I've got a new 7b project, I've climbed this grade before but the style of this one is not what I'm used to. No really hard moves but ~15 meters without a real rest, sustained!

I linked it from the floor to a finger jug (pumpy "rest") about 4 meters up, 6 moves. Then rested on the rope and linked from there for ~10 moves to the final dyno. Once latched the route is jugs to the belay.

It's a route that if I was a lot fitter I could probably on-sight as I worked and did all the moves in isolation first go.

So my question, as this is a fitness/PE issue do I (As well as the feet on fingerboard stuff I'm doing):

a. Keep trying to link sections/start redpointing and get fit on the route?
b. Go around ticking multiple easier routes to get fit, then come back to my project?

I guess I'm trying to avoid an all out siege...

I'm aware of this thread on redpoint tactics:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=17748.0

Just looking for something a little more specific.

Cheers

Bit of an update, did the route last night. Psyched!

Felt solid and went without a hitch in the end. I feel like I've improved a lot over the last month. Definitely not getting anywhere near as pumped on routes.

It took 3 evening sessions in total. Weather has stopped me getting back sooner.

After initially saying it has no rest spot on the route, when I did it I actually rested/shaked all the way up (5 times in total) in complete control. Great feeling!

7b+ next!

[andy popp]

Nice one. I don't think you'll have any trouble moving to 7b+ (if you haven't already  ). IPJF is right next door!

[SA Chris]

I knew it! Good work, time to up the ante.

[Luke Owens]

Nice one. I don't think you'll have any trouble moving to 7b+ (if you haven't already  ). IPJF is right next door!

Never been on a 7b+! IPJF is next in line...

Although i've heard a few people say it's easier than Barrance and should really be 7b so i'm not sure if it would be a proper 7b+ tick!

Either way it's next as it just looks awesome!

I knew it! Good work, time to up the ante.

Cheers Chris! I guess the answer in the end was "To Redpoint"!

[SA Chris]

When in doubt redpoint it out.

[Doylo]

Nice one Luke. Get on the bandits. One of the best there and will never be downgraded

[Luke Owens]

Nice one Luke. Get on the bandits. One of the best there and will never be downgraded

Cheers Doylo, heard Bandits is nails for 7b+ but a great route. What's it like? Sustained I'm guessing!

I belayed Spidey on it last year and he made it look 8b...

[Doylo]

Nice one Luke. Get on the bandits. One of the best there and will never be downgraded

Cheers Doylo, heard Bandits is nails for 7b+ but a great route. What's it like? Sustained I'm guessing!

I belayed Spidey on it last year and he made it look 8b...

Was a while ago so can't remember much apart from its sustained. Well if people say that get on Judy then. Fine feathered fink seemed ok too

[petejh]

Another excellent 7b+ is Grand Canyon in Devil's Gorge, should be drying out around now. Soft too, although definitely at the pumpy end of the spectrum.

[Ally Smith]

Well done Luke!

Sounds like some massive progress in the last 6 weeks if you can now shake out where previously you were getting pumped out. Was it the foot-on campus'ing that made the difference you think?

BTW. Grand Canyon was gopping on Saturday evening, but that place defies all conditions science so it might actually be dry!

ps. Let me know if it is dry - some competition might be just the thing to get Lee to finish off his 10year siege of the extension...

[Luke Owens]

Well done Luke!

Sounds like some massive progress in the last 6 weeks if you can now shake out where previously you were getting pumped out. Was it the foot-on campus'ing that made the difference you think?

BTW. Grand Canyon was gopping on Saturday evening, but that place defies all conditions science so it might actually be dry!

ps. Let me know if it is dry - some competition might be just the thing to get Lee to finish off his 10year siege of the extension...

Cheers Ally, the feet on fingerboard/campusing has helped me massively! That combined with just getting out redpointing routes and a few odd on-sighting sessions.

I've figured out in the last few months I definitely benefit a lot from resting more than I used too. I used to have 3+ days on and now I'm just doing 1 on 1 off (or 2 on at a push) and seem to improve more.

Getting out this evening, was supposed to be heading to Pinfold, weather looks shocking. Don't know whether to risk the Gorge or bail to the coast...

A friend of mine has belayed Lee on his project recently and said he's getting very very close so hopefully this year will be the year!

[Ally Smith]

A friend of mine has belayed Lee on his project recently and said he's getting very very close so hopefully this year will be the year!

A likely story!!!

[Luke Owens]

A short video of me doing the route that sparked the original question...

[Luke Owens]

Following on from my experience with the above route I have a new project...

...and I was wondering what causes you to get "powered out" on a route as opposed to pumped to the point of falling off?

All the moves on my new project go easily in isolation, on redpoint I climb fine up until a point and the next minute I'm off, no pump just no power left. Strange feeling, I know I'll break through this soon but I was just curious if anyone knew what causes this "powered out" feeling, or more to the point what is it pointing to a lack of?

I've heard plenty of people say they weren't pumped on a route but just didn't have anything left to make an easy move all of a sudden, but I've never thought to much into it until now.

Cheers

[T_B]

I was just curious if anyone knew what causes this "powered out" feeling, or more to the point what is it pointing to a lack of?

Er, power?

Seriously. It's power-endurance innit? Get yourself on a circuit board and work out a circuit of 15 - 25 moves, that you can't link initially in a oner. Then work away at completing it, missing out the first few moves and working backwards until you can do it. Then put on a harder, cruxier finish and hey presto, you have Power Endurance.

[biscuit]

AFAIK it's when the moves are too intense.

It's the difference between doing lots of moves that are not hard but are not easy = burning pump that eventually makes your fingers un curl with forearms solid and a short sequence ( less than 10 ) that you could do all the moves in isolation but you can't put them together. You run out of the bodys quick release energy in the forearms and can't do any more moves at that intensity.

Like the difference between 800m and 100m in athletics. One is not all that hard but because it goes on for so long you end up being sick. The other is much more intense and once you reach top speed you can't maintain it for long and you fade.

That was much longer than i intended and has probably confused you more. Sorry.

[Luke Owens]

I've heard plenty of people say they weren't pumped on a route but just didn't have anything left to make an easy move all of a sudden, but I've never thought to much into it until now.

When this happens to me, I tend to associate it with being inadequately warmed up. Perhaps you need to add one more warmup at a higher grade before getting on the project?

I always get that "I might do too much of a warm up and feel tired on my project" feeling. But I should try a longer warm up for sure.

I also get about 2 good redpoints then it's all down hill from there. I read somewhere that If your first redpoint is the best and the subsequent ones are worse then it's a lack of endurance.

My other dilemma as of late is whether to train strength or power endurance.

I know people that have got up harder climbs through being strong at bouldering and have not done a lot of sport climbing. I'm presuming due to the moves being less taxing thus not getting as pumped because the climbing is not making them cross their anaerobic threshold at all/as quick.

Makes me want to just go bouldering loads and come back stronger and see what happens. But then I read a lot about PE training and the benefits etc... I guess doing both would be the best idea...

It's difficult to decide on what to do when people around you get by purely on strength rather than specific PE training. Like what biscuit said above, burning out because the moves are hard, if I got stronger surely this wouldn't happen...

Decisions decisions decisions...

[Doylo]

Simple- train both!

[Luke Owens]

Simple- train both!

I fell off throwing for the top of the crag on Black Wednesday yesterday evening pumped out of my mind pal... haha. I litrally can't rest anywhere on that route!

I figured training both would be best.

So I've been thinking... I sport climb 3 times a week. So I'm pretty much getting pumped 3 times a week. I'm guessing it wouldn't make sense to then do extra PE training on top of that? I could probably fit in 2 strength/power sessions.

That's 5 training days a week though...

[Doylo]

Comes at you at the end doesn't it!

[biscuit]

Think of the progress you could make if you could get an extra 2 decent redpoints in a session.

Only having a couple of burns on a project is not many - is that in a full day though or an evening session ?

You do a lot of climbing in a week though already and that's always the best way.

Trying to identify what's holding you back is often v hard. Get someone else, who knows how you climb, to give you an idea or 2.

[Luke Owens]

Think of the progress you could make if you could get an extra 2 decent redpoints in a session.

Only having a couple of burns on a project is not many - is that in a full day though or an evening session ?

You do a lot of climbing in a week though already and that's always the best way.

Trying to identify what's holding you back is often v hard. Get someone else, who knows how you climb, to give you an idea or 2.

In an evening session I get about 2 good blasts at a project. It does seem to be Power Endurance that's holding me back at the moment but then it's back to my dilemma about thinking that getting stronger surely would just make this less of a problem.

I'll just continue to pick away at both and stop stressing over training!

[andy popp]

I'd have thought IPJF was more the toward the P end of the PE continuum. It can't be more than about ten hand moves to the base of the crack (where it should be over really). Being stronger isn't going to hurt.

[Luke Owens]

I'd have thought IPJF was more the toward the P end of the PE continuum. It can't be more than about ten hand moves to the base of the crack (where it should be over really). Being stronger isn't going to hurt.

Yeah, It is roughly 10 hand movements, I get really zapped of power right off the first crux through the overlap at the start.

I think choosing a steep (compared to what i'm used to), powerful, bouldery route wasn't the easiest way to get myself to the next grade, seems  as i'm used to technical routes. But atleast it sure as hell will be good when it's done!

[Davo]

2 good burns in an evening session a short bouldery route like I punched Judy seems reasonable to me. Personally I tend to have about 3 decent redpoints in a whole day/session but time of an evening limits me to about 2 on something at my limit.

As said earlier it would certainly be more at the power/strength end of things IPJF rather than the endurance end. So being a bit more boulder strong would probably get you up it.

I generally find most of the routes at Dinbren very bouldery for their respective grades.

Dave