[jwi]

Good job! And good luck in El Chorro!

[Rocksteady]

Wanted to ressurect this thread as I'm going to El Chorro for the end of March too - now have 5 training weeks left (giving myself a tuning/rest week before I leave). Not aiming for any PBs as usually struggle to do this on a trip, but would like to perform consistently at my current best level in the low F7s.

I'm wondering what would be the best training to use over the next 5 weeks. I've recently been bouldering more than anything else and have seen the benefits of being stronger than ever before. I try to keep my hand in on routes - generally get on a rope once a week and usually do double laps of easyish routes (always get injured doing hard routes indoors). So I have an OK base to start from. Probably will manage 3-4 sessions a week.

In El Chorro the routes look pretty long. Should I be focusing on:

'Stamina': long circuits (60 moves?) / route 4x4s - necessarily think I'll be starting this at a fairly low level in the early-mid F6s.

'Power endurance': shorter, harder circuits, boulder 4x4s

Bit of both? If both, separate sessions or same session including both types?

Reading the Binney stuff gives me the impression that I can adapt in 1-2 months - which is the time I've got...

Thanks.

[shark]

I'm wondering what would be the best training to use over the next 5 weeks. I've recently been bouldering more than anything else and have seen the benefits of being stronger than ever before. I try to keep my hand in on routes - generally get on a rope once a week and usually do double laps of easyish routes (always get injured doing hard routes indoors). So I have an OK base to start from. Probably will manage 3-4 sessions a week.

In El Chorro the routes look pretty long. Should I be focusing on:

'Stamina': long circuits (60 moves?) / route 4x4s - necessarily think I'll be starting this at a fairly low level in the early-mid F6s.

'Power endurance': shorter, harder circuits, boulder 4x4s

Bit of both? If both, separate sessions or same session including both types?

Reading the Binney stuff gives me the impression that I can adapt in 1-2 months - which is the time I've got...

Thanks.

Both in separate sessions. If you can up it to 4/5 sessions a week.

Don't drop strength/bouldering entirely - keep it ticking over.

[Rocksteady]

Thanks Shark, good succinct answer!

[abarro81]

Ideally you'd have done your base stamina (aero cap/ARC) work by this point so you could focus on getting pumped to hell now. Something to think of for next time...
(Also, not at all convinced you can't successfully mix PE and aerocap in one session - in that order - especially if your PE is at the enduro end of PE.)

[Rocksteady]

Well my plan is going to be something like this:

1st session in a week: Route 4x4s / long circuits progressing to double laps on routes at onsight level
2nd session in a week: Short circuits / boulder 4x4s increasing intensity as I get closer to trip
3rd session in a week: Bouldering + aerocap laps on autobelay
4th session in a week: Fingerboard + 20:10s

I'll report back after trip and give my thoughts on what worked/didn't work.

[Paul B]

Depending on when your sessions occur (and thus rest days), these 'might' be in a less than ideal order?

[Rocksteady]

Good point. General protocol is to go from highest intensity to lowest intensity? While I'd do higher intensity moves bouldering, session with the highest intensity + volume and needing longest recovery time would be short circuits I think.

This level of structuring is what I find hardest actually. Happy making a plan on a macro level but fitting in workouts to right order I find tough. Generally pleased if I can fit everything in a week!

My thoughts:

Mon: Fingerboard
Tue: Route laps
Thu: Boulder
Sat: Short circuits

Gives whole of Sunday and Monday day to recover from circuits. Fingerboard won't affect route laps as going from small holds few moves to big holds lots of moves. Only get one day of rest after laps before bouldering, and one day of rest after. But if I focus on intensity not volume should be OK for recovery.

Any advice?
 

[mrjonathanr]

Personally I think that whilst these insights into adaptation are no doubt true, all but the very elite will benefit from just getting on with doing lots of climbing at varied intensities, in any order.

[Paul B]

Personally I think that whilst these insights into adaptation are no doubt true, all but the very elite will benefit from just getting on with doing lots of climbing at varied intensities, in any order.

I'm not sure I agree, especially if you go to the next level down i.e. session structure where it would become apparent that doing high volume and low intensity followed by low volume, high intensity impacted the latter.

In general I think a LOT of people (myself included at times) talk and post about training rather than actually training (not just bouldering 'a bit').

[TobyD]

Personally I think that whilst these insights into adaptation are no doubt true, all but the very elite will benefit from just getting on with doing lots of climbing at varied intensities, in any order.

I'm not sure I agree, especially if you go to the next level down i.e. session structure where it would become apparent that doing high volume and low intensity followed by low volume, high intensity impacted the latter.

In general I think a LOT of people (myself included at times) talk and post about training rather than actually training (not just bouldering 'a bit').

I agree (on both counts), although I think you (Paul) probably indulge in more efficient and targeted training than 98%. Most people, definitely including myself do far too much of what they are already good at, and not enough of what they are not.
Another observation, off topic really, but .... loads of people train themselves into oblivion, amassing huge reserves of power / endurance / whatever, and then waste the lot when they get really scared 2ft above a bolt / bit of gear / pad, overgrip massively and get as pumped as they would have been if they'd spent all that time in the pub.

[Paul B]

what Andy said tonight about some of the best sprinters never achieving their potential because they were too psyched and unable to rest was interesting. It'd be interesting to know where he heard/read that.

[mrjonathanr]

I agree with the points about intensity and order but still believe it is too easy to overthink and fuss instead of just getting on with it.

Aside a bit of commonsense (train power> then PE> then stamina) I don't think it's helpful to think 'Well i shouldn't do x on Thursday because I did Y on Wednesday'). Getting on and pulling hard without getting too bogged down in analysis would benefit most more IMO.

[jstrongman]

I am also looking for some PE training advice. Living in cornwall and having a wife and small boy, I do not have regular access to a descent climbing or bouldering wall. Things I do have are a variable angle 1-12 rung campus board small (16mm) and large (30mm) rungs and a beastmaker.  Looking for workouts/exercises to fit about an 8 week plan.

Current grades
Bouldering in  7A/+ (1-2 sessions)
Route onsight 7a
Trad onsight E3 5c

[petejh]

Time yourself. Keep one foot on something (chair etc etc). Go up and down your campus board on the large rungs, hand over hand, for 3 mins. Matching on the start and the top (probably the 4th rung). Have 3 mins rest. Do this 4 times. As soon as you can complete all 4 reps, lower the rest time in 15 second increments until you can complete all 4 reps with only 2mins rest between. Or, move onto the small rungs with the same timings and as before start dropping the rest timings once you can complete the 4th rep.

Do twice per week for maximum of 5 weeks. Reap the rewards. Repeat. Or sack it off because it's painful drudgery.


You don't need to know anything more complicated than that for gaining enough PE to do routes up to 8a+, in my experience of being weak as piss at anything requiring PE - seriously, I get pumped tying my shoe laces. You might want to work a bit of strength to get yourself to doing font 7bish in a sesh for cruxy routes.

[jstrongman]

I  am also rubbish at getting pumped often uncoiling the ropes will induce a flash pump!!

With the foot on campusing is it just a matter of laddering or should you mix in some other exercises like a traditional campus workout just with a toe/feet on?

The other thing I am terrible at is recovering on holds is this a PE issue or hand/finger strength?

[scottygillery]

The other thing I am terrible at is recovering on holds is this a PE issue or hand/finger strength?

I wouldn't worry about whether it's strength or PE, aero and an. The key is you'll improve by practising it. You could try incorporating a shake out into you feeton campusing regime.

[jstrongman]

Time yourself. Keep one foot on something (chair etc etc). Go up and down your campus board on the large rungs, hand over hand, for 3 mins. Matching on the start and the top (probably the 4th rung). Have 3 mins rest. Do this 4 times. As soon as you can complete all 4 reps, lower the rest time in 15 second increments until you can complete all 4 reps with only 2mins rest between. Or, move onto the small rungs with the same timings and as before start dropping the rest timings once you can complete the 4th rep.

Do twice per week for maximum of 5 weeks. Reap the rewards. Repeat. Or sack it off because it's painful drudgery.


You don't need to know anything more complicated than that for gaining enough PE to do routes up to 8a+, in my experience of being weak as piss at anything requiring PE - seriously, I get pumped tying my shoe laces. You might want to work a bit of strength to get yourself to doing font 7bish in a sesh for cruxy routes.

Oh my lord!! Did my first session last night thought that this was going to be easy and when I statred it felt piss, but then the pump started, R1 managed 2.10 min R2 1.40 R3 1.35 and R4 1.20 so pumped  Such a simple exercise but so effective at generating a pure forearm pump and using the large rungs you can really push into the burn.

[webbo]

When doing 4 x 4 bouldering how long should the problems be  ( how many hand moves ) or whats the shortest you can get away with and still be effective.

[petejh]

Oh my lord!! Did my first session last night thought that this was going to be easy and when I statred it felt piss, but then the pump started, R1 managed 2.10 min R2 1.40 R3 1.35 and R4 1.20 so pumped  Such a simple exercise but so effective at generating a pure forearm pump and using the large rungs you can really push into the burn.

Haha  Good stuff. Yep it's very basic and very effective, like all good training should be.

Looks like you should aim for 2 mins on each rep, try 3 mins rest between reps. You ideally want to be failing to complete on the last rep. Aim to relax your grip as you climb to help blood flow, and swap leading hand each time you go back 'up'.

(that'll be £25)

[scottygillery]

When doing 4 x 4 bouldering how long should the problems be  ( how many hand moves ) or whats the shortest you can get away with and still be effective.

Depends what you are training for. Assuming you are also looking to train for choro and that it also endurance that you lack (as OP). Then match the number of moves to the number of moves on the routes out there. So , i guess 40 moves or more.

Unfortunately there is no way to train for long routes by doing the "the shortest you can get away with"

Is the problem that you only have assess to 3 moves problems? In this case you'll have to opt for 12x4s.

[jstrongman]

....

(that'll be £25)

[/quote]

Thanks, will send you a pasty when I get up Strongbow (F7c)

[webbo]

 The shortest you can get away with is more about the length of the problems on my board, rather than hoping to develop the stamina for overhanging 60 metre routes by doing 2 move problems.
The straight up problems are 4 hand moves to the finishing hold 5 to match it.

[scottygillery]

The shortest you can get away with is more about the length of the problems on my board, rather than hoping to develop the stamina for overhanging 60 metre routes by doing 2 move problems.
The straight up problems are 4 hand moves to the finishing hold 5 to match it.

I guess my advice still stands. You have to tailor the number of moves to the routes you are aiming to climb. Which will mean setting a goal.

i.e. raindogs = 25 moves, 5or6 times up your board. OR Lourdes = 200 moves (guess), 40to50 times up your board! (this isn't realistically possible unless you have the determination of a Jazz musician on a 2 hour improvised flute solo)

[Sasquatch]

40to50 times up your board! (this isn't realistically possible unless you have the determination of a Jazz musician on a 2 hour improvised flute solo)

Been there, done that.  And yes, you have to have something seriously missing from your brain to make it work. 

I could never make it work by doing it for time, but was able to manage when I started doing it just for time....  After about 30-50 move sets, I shifted over to doing 5 minutes and building from there.  Generally it seemed like I would be doing 10-15 moves a minute.  At the most I was doing 4-5 20 minute sessions (about 200-300 moves) on an 8 tall x 8 wide board 30 degree board.  VERY mentally painful, and ultimately not that productive....

WhatI found most effective was what I called a 10minute 4x4.  Climb problem 1, then get to a jug and rest shake out for about 3 minutes, climb problem 2, then rest on jug for 3 minutes, climb problem 3 rest on jug for 3 min, then climb problem 4.  In total it would take me about 10 minutes.  This seemed to mimic and simulate a couple of positives for me.  #1 remembering to rest, being able to recover at a rest, and still have the punch at the end to do some hard moves.  At first it was hard just to stay on for 10 minutes, but soon the recovery became effective and I could do much harder problems as well.