[El Mocho]

+1 for JB's view on this.

Johnny 'anti bolt' Brown seems spot on with all this. Coming from the perspective of someone who enjoys and does quite a lot of sport climbing as well as trad I think the additions of bolt/replacement with shinny new bolts on things like Kellogg or Darius would be completely unacceptable and to be honest I would now not trust the judgement of people who would suggest such routes as examples for new bolts.

We need to be looking at what shoody insitu gear is now not needed (and can be protected with modern gear with minimal change to grade/character) rather than desperately trying to find routes we can add bolts to.

The sort of routes I feel may be up for consideration for new bolts (although I have not done it so can't say for sure) could be something like A Miller's Tale. I have heard this has little/no natural gear on the top just old pegs. I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this (I remember Pete Robins telling me about backing off it and saying the gear was now bad and he often has a pretty blind faith in bad gear...)  According to the guide this was considered as one of/the best route on the wall. Piranha on the other hand is an awesome highball above pads (up to the break, then down climb E4 to left) which I have done a few times (was gonna say recently but looked at my guide and it was 2004 and 2008) so def does not need bolts.

ps having just had a few days climbing in Squamish I would be very reluctant to go down the road of adding the odd bolt here and there, at the rate it is going you will be able to climb the Grand Wall with just a rack of quickdraws in a few years...

[dave]

I'd agree with the millers tale thing.

[Wood FT]

I like the character of british trad where you occasionally climb past these rotting pieces of history, or old industrial relics (like the girders and spikes on slate).

I'm with you on this, it's the historical quirks of certain routes that draw you in and add character to the route, more often than not you can fiddle in something modern to save your neck. I understand the point 'people' are making but the examples used thus far are strange to say the least.

The sort of routes I feel may be up for consideration for new bolts (although I have not done it so can't say for sure) could be something like A Miller's Tale. I have heard this has little/no natural gear on the top just old pegs. I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this (I remember Pete Robins telling me about backing off it and saying the gear was now bad and he often has a pretty blind faith in bad gear...)  According to the guide this was considered as one of/the best route on the wall.

Me too, was belaying a friend on Millers tale last week who backed off having fell on the peg already. A sadly forgotten route.

[shark]

I'd agree with the millers tale thing.

I don't

I tried to clean this a while back as I thought it was precisely the type of route which shouldn't be sneakily retro-bolted.

The low peg can be backed up with a wire IIRC but the slopey moves onto the ledge need cleaning as well as the vegetation on the wall above. I would have replaced the pegs above too if required.

Unfortunately my cleaning activity interfered with someone on Hot Fun Closing so I stopped and haven't been back to finish the job.

[El Mocho]

Good knowledge Shark,

This is the sort of thing we need to find out. I had always kept off it as had assumed it did rely on the peg but if it can be done without (and potentially gets a clean) I would get on it, the other trad routes here (Dragonfly etc) see plenty of traffic and as a crag I think it stays cleaner than many less open places...

what size wire was it?

[kc]

What is needed at Rubicon are some decent discreet lower offs, not only to tempt people on to these trad routes but also to protect the jungle above. Plus dislodging stuff onto the busy footpath.

[grimer]

As these things get bogged down in detail, are there principals to discuss?

Has Peak limestone become very unpopular in the last 15 years, a trend likely to continue in the forseeable future?

Does this unpopularity lead to routes (not all, but a significant number) becoming out of condition and over time unclimbable?

Is it better that routes get climbed or is this loss just the way of things and people will always vote with their feet?

Would some degree of retrobolting lead to people climbing these routes again and keep them in condition?

Is the compromise of ethics and the loss of that historical value a greater evil than the 'loss' of the routes?

[Johnny Brown]

I refer you to my post on the first page, I think the general stuff has been done to death. Yes trad lime is less popular, yes for the odd route this may be due to defunct fixed gear, yes that might be helped with the odd bolt. Okay then, which ones? I think that's where we're at here. Too much waffle has already been expended on vague generalities.

I'm a bit more relaxed about the supposed 'loss' of routes than most. I suspect in any real cases on Peak lime, routes that have been 'lost' were first climbed in the late seventies/ early eighties, perhaps had a few repeats over the next ten years, then faded away. I'm in favour of natural selection when it comes to route survival, if nobody cared before will they really now?

Again, if I'm wrong we're back to specifics: any examples of a good route that is no longer climbable due to gear or vegetation, AND is in a sensitive area where re-gardening or bolting would be an issue?

As El Mocho pointed out, whilst we all nod heads at the broad issues, the examples so far brought up are verging on the bizarre, and not doing much for the credibility of the broader arguments.

[grimer]

I don't climb enough on the crags to know, but why not retrobolt things like Amazonia and Jungleland on Dovedale Church. Obviously for a million reasons - first ascensionist doesn't want it, six members of this forum onsighted them last week and they're fine etc etc - but they sound brilliant. If they were bolted up I'd love to go and try them but as gnarly trad lines I doubt I ever would. Is this the way it works?

PS I know nothing about these apart from what I saw from the deck / guidebook.

[shark]

As these things get bogged down in detail, are there principals to discuss?

Has Peak limestone become very unpopular in the last 15 years, a trend likely to continue in the forseeable future?

Does this unpopularity lead to routes (not all, but a significant number) becoming out of condition and over time unclimbable?

Is it better that routes get climbed or is this loss just the way of things and people will always vote with their feet?

Would some degree of retrobolting lead to people climbing these routes again and keep them in condition?

Is the compromise of ethics and the loss of that historical value a greater evil than the 'loss' of the routes?

Can I throw out some thoughts in a similar vein....? 

Who are we serving here ? An apathetic majority who won't climb something unless it laid out on a plate?

If individuals prefer to climb Gibsonised routes in chossy quarries rather than prepared to ab down the occasional classic line to clean it of their own volition then perhaps climbers deserve to lose those routes and nature deserves to reclaim them.

A BMC effort, however well meaning, could also be viewed as a form of social engineering.

[Johnny Brown]

why not retrobolt things like Amazonia and Jungleland on Dovedale Church

Not been myself, but I think we've got at least one of the FA team on the forum so hopefully they'll have some knowledge.

If individuals prefer to climb Gibsonised routes in chossy quarries rather than prepared to ab down the occasional classic line to clean it of their own volition then perhaps climbers deserve to lose those routes and nature deserves to reclaim them.

Agree completely, though I remember discussing this a few years ago at an International meet, where the counter-point was made that such a process might be a vicious circle and we'll end up with a very different scene (perhaps that was your point).

A BMC effort, however well meaning, could also be viewed as a form of social engineering.

Indeed, though I suspect like most such attempts not very successful.

Was there any specific route that prompted that comment, Ben? GW itself hasn't had anything new added to it since I first did it in 2005, and I am pretty sure there'd be a very strong reaction if a classic pitch on it like the Split Pillar or Merci Me was changed at all from its historic state (*). Generally I think you are wrong and if anything the trajectory is in the opposite direction these days. I can think of at least two examples of new bolts being removed in the last couple of years because of consensus opinion:

There was little change to GW since I was last there in 2006, possibly even more bolts on Perry's layback and the pitch above.

More generally in Squamish though there is a tendency to bang in a bolt whenever gear is vaguely tricky - the first (second) pitch of Freeway for example, and the third, and the last for starters. Our visit (my second) confirmed my opinion that the hybrid style is a tricky one to get right and in Squamish the trad-lite compromise is usually a bit on the lite side. Good to hear folk are now heading the other way though, and it was good to see the only bolts in the Bugaboos were on the raps.

[Neil F]

No time for a comprehensive post listing all my views on this complex topic, but I just wanted to correct one mistake from further up the thread.

It is a shame that neither JB nor El M could make the Glossop meeting, as both would have certainly made worthwhile contributions to this particular debate (though I am sure we will revisit it during future meetings).

On the issue of Kellogg on Windy Buttress, Ian used this as an example scenario in his broader proposal for the restoration of Peak limestone routes.  However, he certainly wasn't advocating retrobolting the route, which both he and I led in the days before bouldering mats had been invented (quite significant on this particular route, with its completely unprotected, initial 6b crux wall).

What Ian actually said is that the first gear you get to after this very bold start is an old peg, and if the peg was knackered, and a decent equivalent peg could not be added because the placement had gone, then perhaps that might be an example where a bolt could be considered.  ie. not on the bold crux wall, not on the well protected but hard (6a) pull into the upper groove (or indeed the groove itself), but a single bolt at the level of the first gear, about 20ft up.

Now it may be that folk feel that is a step to far, or inappropriate, which is fine.  But please don't debate whether Ian should have suggested retrobolting Kellogg, because he didn't.

As for the issue of the Darius, Lyme Cryme and Original Route abseil bolts, I actually think that is much trickier.

I first led P1 of LC in 1983 as a warm up, and thought it was a complete path.  I re-led it last year and as I set off, the only thing I could remember about the pitch was that it was a complete path.  It obviously goes without saying that I completely failed to find that path, and by the time I wobbled up to clip the rusting coathanger, I was feeling just a little flustered.  The tricky thing about this example is that literally one easy move higher, there are completely bomber nuts and friends, but you don't know that when you clip the bolt, which felt pretty welcome to me last year...

I remembered Darius as having decent, easily placed natural threads right next to the bolt, but when a mate did it a couple of weeks ago, and I quizzed him on this and whether he felt the bolt was necessary, he didn't think those threads were how I had remembered them.  He felt the bolt was well justified (and he has on sighted 8a, albeit in a former life - I know, I was holding his rope at the time. But I digress....).

My view is probably that if you are going to have a bolt, it might as well be a decent one.  Chatting to Shark at the bar last week, he said that the romantic in him wonders if you could replace the crap old bolt on LC, with a crap new bolt....!  Not sure I buy that one.

One thing which might be worth bearing in mind is that if "we" decide to remove the bolt from Darius, whilst at the same time replacing the aged but crucial bolt on Circe (which I hear someone has finally sorted out, and well done to them from me), then we will undoubtedly face charges of elitism.

Thoughts....?

Neil

[Dolly]

Can I throw out some thoughts in a similar vein....? 
Who are we serving here ? An apathetic majority who won't climb something unless it laid out on a plate?
If individuals prefer to climb Gibsonised routes in chossy quarries rather than prepared to ab down the occasional classic line to clean it of their own volition then perhaps climbers deserve to lose those routes and nature deserves to reclaim them.
[/quote]

I think that's good point - I agree with all that

[Fiend]

Off-piste thought: Replace Lyme Crime bolt with a normal bolt but significantly lower down, a la slate-style designer scare, to maintain the feel of the route??

Not sure where it's all gone wrong with Peak Lime, when I were a youth Chee Tor, Stoney, Dove Dale, High Tor, Willersley etc were the only places to be in summer. I mean okay like most inland limestone it's mostly a bit shit, but that doesn't stop the sport climbing staying popular. I support the ideal of cleaning (including rebolting but not retrobolting), and popularising (including climbers getting off their arses and climbing in these places) the trad, but I understand the complexity and unpredictability of the issue

[Johnny Brown]

What Ian actually said is that the first gear you get to after this very bold start is an old peg, and if the peg was knackered, and a decent equivalent peg could not be added because the placement had gone, then perhaps that might be an example where a bolt could be considered.  ie. not on the bold crux wall, not on the well protected but hard (6a) pull into the upper groove (or indeed the groove itself), but a single bolt at the level of the first gear, about 20ft up.

Thanks for that context Neil. No elitism here, I'm an E4/5 climber on lime and of the three times I've forced myself up Kellog's start twice I've had to hang on the crux entering the groove (for about forty minutes the first time). Despite getting pumped and scared on the initial wall the climbing eases completely and there is gear. Put a bolt there and all that will happen is everybody will stick clip it and toprope the first bit. The odd hero will try it ground-up, give themselves the willies and then go and find a stick. You'll change the route completely. The E4s and 5s off Windy ledge are a classic suite of routes with similar character. They get done regularly, and currently have only one bolt between them (Circe). Lets keep it that way.

[nai]

Not sure where it's all gone wrong with Peak Lime,

Not sure it has gone wrong, while the chossy quarries attract more attention than they deserve there's plenty of activity on trad limestone within the grades that would be affected by them(I'm guessing up to 7aish), looking at ukc logbooks stuff like like Scoop Wall, Armegeddon, Darius have about 20 ascents each logged this year & Lyme Cryme, Adjudicator Wall, Flaky Wall all have plenty too.

Compared with classic Yorkshire trad routes:

Crossbones, Wombat & Carnage <10 each
Face Route - 2 ascents
Mullato Wall - 2
Midnight Cowboy - none
Slender Loris- 1 ascent

Ok, these are classics but it's an indicator that in the mid grades there's still an appetite for it, but when you get above E5 things start to dramatically thin out, even the classics have very few ascents logged.

not sure what can be done but other areas have seen an increase in traffic after a new guide so maybe getting it sorted and making a great job of it would help?

[205Chris]

I'd agree with the millers tale thing.

I don't

I tried to clean this a while back

How far back are you talking? According to the other channel you lead this in 1988?

I'm another +1 for Miller's Tale. Hot Fun Closing used to be protected with wires / pegs yet got bolted (with FAs permission as I understood it). I always wondered why Miller's Tale wasn't a similar candidate. I've never seen anyone on it (or even signs that people have been on it) whenever I've been to Rubicon.

It reminds me of this thread. The suggestion of bolting a couple of trad lines at the cornice was met with general disapproval yet having spent a large amount of time at the cornice over the last 2 years I never once saw anyone on them (logbooks on the other side back this up as well). This is despite the fact that loads of trad climbers must have walked directly underneath them on their way to Chee Tor! To talk specific examples then those routes at the cornice would be obvious candidates in my opinion.

[Neil F]

The E4s and 5s off Windy ledge are a classic suite of routes with similar character. They get done regularly, and currently have only one bolt between them (Circe). Lets keep it that way.

Can't disagree with that JB, and I doubt Ian would either.  But the point isn't whether the location of the first gear on Kellogg is a height conveniently reachable by an extended clip stick, and that if you were to put a bolt there to replace knackered and irreplaceable pegs, that is exactly what people would do....

....after all, people have been bringing routes down to their level for years.  You only need to look at the bizzarre activity of headpointing to confirm that....

.....but that actually should we consider that if there is a crucial knackered old peg, and in trying to bring a route back to life, it is found that replacing it with another is impossible (it does happen), then should we sometimes consider replacing it with a bolt?

That was the point I think Ian was trying to make, and in some instances (though I agree with you, that Kellogg isn't one of them) I think perhaps we should.

As for Miller's Tale, there are decent slots and replacing the pegs ought to be eminently possible, and that is definitely what should happen.  It is a fine route, and deserves to be climbed.

I agree with Kristian that discrete lower offs at the top of those Rubicon Wall routes would be a big help (you could make them really discrete by hiding them under the ivy!).

And, finally, regarding Piranha (and to paraphrase JB)...

... I will personally remove any bolts placed to protect the climbing on it.

So there!

Neil

[leeroy]

This may have been covered in the thread above, so I apologise if I'm repeating others points. What do people think to improving/adding lower offs to the top of trad routes at Rubicon such as piranha, white bait, jezebel etc? Not vouching for a full retrobolt of these at all, but I'd be tempted to try these routes if I knew there was going to be a solid way down; hearing stories of precarious bridging down trees hardly inspires confidence. These lower offs would be out of clipstick range and perhaps increase the popularity of these routes enough to so that they remain clean but not uber polished.

edit, suggested by neil above.

[Wood FT]

Not sure where it's all gone wrong with Peak Lime,

Not sure it has gone wrong, while the chossy quarries attract more attention than they deserve there's plenty of activity on trad limestone within the grades that would be affected by them(I'm guessing up to 7aish), looking at ukc logbooks stuff like like Scoop Wall, Armegeddon, Darius have about 20 ascents each logged this year & Lyme Cryme, Adjudicator Wall, Flaky Wall all have plenty too.

Compared with classic Yorkshire trad routes:

Crossbones, Wombat & Carnage <10 each
Face Route - 2 ascents
Mullato Wall - 2
Midnight Cowboy - none
Slender Loris- 1 ascent

Ok, these are classics but it's an indicator that in the mid grades there's still an appetite for it, but when you get above E5 things start to dramatically thin out, even the classics have very few ascents logged.

not sure what can be done but other areas have seen an increase in traffic after a new guide so maybe getting it sorted and making a great job of it would help?

good research!

[205Chris]

As for Miller's Tale, there are decent slots and replacing the pegs ought to be eminently possible, and that is definitely what should happen.  It is a fine route, and deserves to be climbed.

If it should happen and it's eminently possible, then why hasn't it happened yet?

I might be wrong but there seems to be a great deal of apathy here. Everyone seems to want to climb these routes, yet no one seems prepared to clean / re-equip them in the original style 

I still don't understand why the Miller's Tale example is so different from Hot Fun? I'm sure the pegs could have been replaced on that but it got bolted?

[tomtom]

Seem great posts on here... Liked Grimers comments - made some good broader more (dare I say) deeper overarching points.
If I could wad a thread.

[SamT]

I still don't understand why the Miller's Tale example is so different from Hot Fun? I'm sure the pegs could have been replaced on that but it got bolted?

Not that I'm inclined one way or the other, but how long will the 'new' pegs (if replaced) stay trustworthy for.   One tends to 'aim' for bits of fixed gear and once clipped, one tends to think, phew, safe..

I wobbled up to clip the rusting coathanger, I was feeling just a little flustered.  The tricky thing about this example is that literally one easy move higher, there are completely bomber nuts and friends, but you don't know that when you clip the bolt, which felt pretty welcome to me last year...

Should a fixed bit of gear not be placed with the idea that its going to be there for a long long time and should therefore be designed to last as long as possible - isn't that why BMC have a 'better bolts' campaign.

Peg whacked in with hammer, placed from an ab rope, or Stainless glue in, whacked in with a hammer drill, placed from an ab rope.
 

both placed as fixed belays that you just clip and go and assume to be bomber.  It takes no more skill as a climber to clip one or t'other.

However, one will clearly out live the other and the state of which probably be easier to assess in the future.

[/devils advocate]

[shark]

How far back are you talking? According to the other channel you lead this in 1988?

Last year.   

[shark]

My view is probably that if you are going to have a bolt, it might as well be a decent one.  Chatting to Shark at the bar last week, he said that the romantic in him wonders if you could replace the crap old bolt on LC, with a crap new bolt....!  Not sure I buy that one.

Nor me - I was talking bollocks