I remembered Darius as having decent, easily placed natural threads right next to the bolt, but when a mate did it a couple of weeks ago, and I quizzed him on this and whether he felt the bolt was necessary, he didn't think those threads were how I had remembered them. He felt the bolt was well justified (and he has on sighted 8a, albeit in a former life - I know, I was holding his rope at the time. But I digress....).
Its fascinating how humans twist and change situations for their own peace of mind or to align with their feelings
Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap. There have been more than a few that did snap with just a gentle tap but they were usually very obviously corroded to within an inch mm of their lives. Or any placed by George Smith , never trust old bolts on a George Smith route. Bearing in mind that this is what I've found in the worst possible conditions for mild steel then I'd be prepared to bet that some of these old pegs and bolts on inland crags (I'm not familiar with the routes) are actually quite able of holding leader falls for many years to come.
Wouldn't it be worth firstly doing some tests on a a spread of these old pegs/bolts in place, to see how they perform with some high impact forces and then base any decisions to re-equip or not on something more solid than 'efics' and how the old equipment looks to the untrained eye (we're all untrained here unless someone is a specialist in carbon steel corrosion).
4. Conservation. Again linked to ethics - how much or little the rock should be altered or changed. Interestingly the general UK ethic/feeling not to change the rock is relaxed on limestone - often justified by its more 'transient' nature than other rock types. This is interesting as limestone features are often the most spectacular of rock formations and you could argue therefore have more reason to be left alone!
.....but that actually should we consider that if there is a crucial knackered old peg, and in trying to bring a route back to life, it is found that replacing it with another is impossible (it does happen), then should we sometimes consider replacing it with a bolt?
Assumption - 'old pegs and bolts are no longer trustworthy'. How true is this? I know from removing literally hundreds of them (pegs and bolts) on NW lime - and I'm talking Rowland Edwards era early 70's mild steel pegs and 8mm bolts with galvanised hangers on sea cliffs here - most of them have been a complete bastard to remove and weren't about to snap.
I've often thought climbing ethics and the arguments behind them are pretty arbitrary, particularly regarding obtaining permission from the first ascensionist. Just because they were the first to climb it, what gives them the right to say what can and can not be done to a piece of rock?
I know we're trying to avoid getting bogged down in specifics but Darius is a poor example here....You also suggest that people are considering removing fixed gear, in reality is anyone actually suggesting they'd go and remove anything (this would likely be viewed as elitist behaviour)? Surely it's more likely "we" (as you put it) may agree to leave it to rot away which could be described as sustainable and forward thinking rather than simply elitist as whatever gets replaced will one day need replacing again.
One thing which might be worth bearing in mind is that if "we" decide to remove the bolt from Darius, whilst at the same time replacing the aged but crucial bolt on Circe (which I hear someone has finally sorted out, and well done to them from me), then we will undoubtedly face charges of elitism.Thoughts....?Neil
It comes down to the question I posed earlier. How significantly does the addition/replacement/loss of a bolt change the character and difficulty of the route. The loss of the bolt on Circe would increase the seriousness of Circe a lot more than the loss of the bolt on Darius. Ergo it is a more justifiable action to replace the bolt on the former. Typically E5s on peak limestone with one bolt have that one bolt for the reason that without it you would hit the deck. This is just a function of hard routes having fewer natural placement than easier ones. The charge of elitism in this case is not a hard one to refute.A couple of specific examples of things which I personally think justify considering for restoration:I tend to agree that Fey, Shazam and A Basic Power Problem on the Chee Cornice qualify. The rest of the crag is fully bolted. The routes are supposed to be very good when clean. Cleaning as trad routes would be highly demoralizing (nay pointless unless time is your oyster)as they would be filthy again within a year. Who loses?As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs.
I agree with all of that, though have no experience of the latter CB route...
As mentioned before, That'll Do Nicely at Central Buttress - once a *** E5 with lots of pegs. Pegs not replaceable. Major hold loss has rendered it a very different (harder) climb since the FA. The nature of the rock means it will be to some extent always unpredictably loose, hence not appealing as a hard trad line with very bad gear (in my experience most hard trad climbers are saner than you might imagine when it comes to hard moves on snappy rock with no gear). Despite all this the climb looks excellent.
My thoughts on TDN are based on having tried to clean and re-peg the route on abseil. It was one of the loosest bits of rock I've come across and a lot of what looked like important holds (and the rock around) came off during the clean.
Cure for Arapiles at the Nook on the other hand is a pegged route which should be bolted IMO.
Replace the bolt on Darius as the E2 leader gets to that point and is thankful for it. It doesn't detract from the pitch, which is top end as people have already said. I don't think it would be a 'better' pitch with a scary E3 runout at 55m when your toes are numb.
We should be looking to take stuff out of these routes, not put more in.