[RichK]

Thoughts folks? A mate (Martin) is keen to bolt  some trad/semi sport lines on Cheedale Cornice. He's asked me to post on his behalf as he has no user name(lame) & is fearful of  .

Anyway, the routes in question are as follows;

Fey E4 6a -  many of us did this as a trad route years ago...very good. Filthy now & looks like it hasn't been done in years. It would make a good warm up at around 6b+/6c I guess.

Basic Power Problem E6 6b ish. Same area. 7a/7b ish?

Crime Passionale - done by many as trad years ago - very good but very neglected. Think Ed Brown did it last year. This has 2-3 rusty bolts in and could do with a couple more to produce another good warm up 6c/6c+.

War Memorial 6c ish - add a bolt to top.

Mart is happy to clean/bolt but conscious there may be objections.

RE Bolting on Cornice, looks ok from access thread earlier in year?

 ,  ,

Thoughts folks?   

[Paul B]

RE Bolting on Cornice, looks ok from access thread earlier in year?

I'm not quite sure how you got to that conlusion from:

There is an absolute embargo on bolting new routes and on retro bolting. It is really important that everyone observes this. If you came across anyone infringing this agreement please point out it could easily cost all concessionary access for everyone. The Wildlife Trust is absolutely clear this is no idle threat.

[mrjonathanr]

Should have gone to Specsavers?   

[RichK]

RE Bolting on Cornice, looks ok from access thread earlier in year?

I'm not quite sure how you got to that conlusion from:

There is an absolute embargo on bolting new routes and on retro bolting. It is really important that everyone observes this. If you came across anyone infringing this agreement please point out it could easily cost all concessionary access for everyone. The Wildlife Trust is absolutely clear this is no idle threat.

Fair point.

I was under impression existing, developed sport crags like cornice were ok for new routes and retro's Hey ho, nevermind.

 Indeed Mr JonathanR I need to stop skim reading.

 
 
 

[Jaspersharpe]

If you do bolt them then can you make sure you put a set of in situ draws on each route, preferably with maillons? I mean if we're going to have some decent new warm ups on The Cornice then there's no point in having to waste time equipping and stripping them for every ascent. Judging by the "Leaving draws" thread then this seems to be ok by most people. Oh and I vote for pink slings on the draws because they'll look nice.

[Johnny Brown]

If folk actually read the thread a little more carefully (the fact is mentioned four times in the first five posts), they'd see that the Cornice is not actually owned by the Wildlife Trust, so Paul's quote is not hugely relevant.

[Paul B]

Should have gone to Specsavers?   

looks like I should

If folk actually read the thread a little more carefully (the fact is mentioned four times in the first five posts), they'd see that the Cornice is not actually owned by the Wildlife Trust, so Paul's quote is not hugely relevant.

Its not the thread, twas this: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4275

[David S]

You really need to get in touch with the first ascentionist of each route to seek their permission out of courteously if nothing else.

[RichK]

If you do bolt them then can you make sure you put a set of in situ draws on each route, preferably with maillons? I mean if we're going to have some decent new warm ups on The Cornice then there's no point in having to waste time equipping and stripping them for every ascent. Judging by the "Leaving draws" thread then this seems to be ok by most people. Oh and I vote for pink slings on the draws because they'll look nice.

[ChrisC]

 Seems like a good plan to me.

 Just make sure to use nice shiny resin bolts like the recently rebolted stuff and not what is free from work.

Also, what about Big Store / Egyptian Bizarre...

[Jerry Morefat]

You really need to get in touch with the first ascensionist of each route to seek their permission out of courteously if nothing else.

I've never understood the logic of this. Just become someone has climbed a piece of rock, it doesn't mean they have some ownership of it. If I was the first person to climb a tree, I wouldn't expect Joe Bloggs to consult me if they wanted to put a tree house in it.

If there is a consens to bolt something, then it should be bolted. The first ascensionist shouldn't have power of veto. Anyway, what happens when the first ascemnionist dies? Does permission have to be sought from their next of kin, or the second ascensionist, or someone else?

[ChrisC]

 

I started to write something like this then gave up as posting frm a phone is a pain in the arse .

[David S]

Nope. I guess no one owns the rock just because they climbed it first but I just think it's good manners. 

[David S]

Should add that I'm just about to retro something too and yes, I did ask. And everything is okay.

[Three Nine]

Good idea. Get em bolted!

[Paul B]

War Memorial 6c ish - add a bolt to top.
Thoughts folks?   

Is it really needed? Its not as if this route is left dirty and unloved, it receives a few ascents most nights at the moment (even when the top is wet). Ok, so it doesn't make for the best sport route in the world but I can think of others in a similiar situation (the toilet), does that need an extra bolt too?

[PATRuL]

Why does no one ever ask the rock?

[David S]

Do you know what - the more I think about it the more I feel that we shouldn't just go and bolt stuff without too much thought for what went before.

Without sounding too Ken Wilsonesque I think it's disrespectful of our climbing history. It's so easy to dismiss the effort, in addition to fear, someone may have gone to in order to climb something, just because someone wants the convenience of a clip up. Now I'm not saying it's wrong to consider retrobolting on certain crags and routes especially when they return to nature and will never get an ascent again but perhaps in this eagerness to bolt everything we should all take a moment or two and think about it.

Take for example The Bomb is Coming at WCJ - I'd love to properly bolt it but I reckon that the first ascentionist (Paul Mitchell) will probably say no. But I will ask the question.

rant over.

[ChrisC]

Is it really needed?

Not strictly no, but it will make for a better route.  Certainly a more appealing one if 6c is your limit, for most at the crag that's not a problem, but not all. Quite some time ago I remember seeing someone fall from the chain, it didn't look fun.

I can see why its missing so as to not interfere etc, but in the retroing context of this thread its just a shitly bolted sport route, as is the top of the toilet. (imo)

[Johnny Brown]

Is it really needed? Its not as if this route is left dirty and unloved, it receives a few ascents most nights at the moment (even when the top is wet). Ok, so it doesn't make for the best sport route in the world

Go to agree with Paul here. All you need to make this route perfectly safe is one or two big wires. The placements are obvious. The alternative is to put a bolt next to a big crack, which I think many quite rightly have a big problem with. I don't have a huge problem with the majority of bolted routes on the cornice as they'd make poor trad routes with little decent gear. I think the popularity argument is a weak one, these are unpopular because the crag as a whole is no longer much of a trad venue. These few remaining routes were regarded as good trad routes once - that is why they remain unbolted - and the tide may turn again in their favour.

There are other routes in The Dale (eg Mad Dogs on Two Tier) which was once a very good route but is now so tightly hemmed in by shit sport routes that not clipping them seems obtuse. Yet it still gets recommended as a great route as folk remember how it was. Similarly I did Spiders from Mars the other night and thought how much better it would have been as a trad route - big holds, bit loose and wandering, decent rests.

I'd suggest that before routes are retroed they should be cleaned up first but left as trad routes for a while. Sometimes a clean is all it takes to prompt some traffic.

As for the FA's approval, in some respects I think no one owns the rock, but at least they are likely to have a decent knowledge of the route, and in most cases are not too hard to get hold of. I get the impression some retro-ers are just looking at the gaps between the sport routes and looking to fill them without much concern for the worth of what's there.

[ChrisC]

.
There are other routes in The Dale (eg Mad Dogs on Two Tier) which was once a very good route but is now so tightly hemmed in by shit sport routes that not clipping them seems obtuse.

At least one of those shit sport routes has now disappeared  (the one that crossed the traverse) thus rendering mad dogs much more independent again...

[grimer]

At least one of those shit sport routes has now disappeared  (the one that crossed the traverse) thus rendering mad dogs much more independent again...

Oh good effort. That really was a bolting abortion.

Personally I don't get too exercised about certain limestone trad routes getting retroed if it means they get climbed. Wouldn't like to see High Tor or Stoney being bolted but wondered if you did this to routes on somewhere like Dovedale Church would they then get traffic.

[IanP]

Personally I don't get too exercised about certain limestone trad routes getting retroed if it means they get climbed. Wouldn't like to see High Tor or Stoney being bolted but wondered if you did this to routes on somewhere like Dovedale Church would they then get traffic.

Agreed, I always feel we should be looking at whether the routes make make better sport or trad routes - given how dirty it gets each year and the generally mixed quality of the rock I wouldn't have any problems with completing the bolting of all the routes at the Cornice.  I did Crime Passionel years ago  and it just felt like a sport route with some missing bolts anyway. 

[Johnny Brown]

I agree broadly with the above posts but I still think it should be tackled on a route by route basis. Climbing Mad Dogs a couple of years back it really felt like a metaphor for lime trad generally - first surrounded, then outnumbered and finally castrated. As much as most of us value High Tor etc, I'm not convinced the process will stop to be honest.

[RichK]

Is it really needed? Its not as if this route is left dirty and unloved, it receives a few ascents most nights at the moment (even when the top is wet). Ok, so it doesn't make for the best sport route in the world

Go to agree with Paul here. All you need to make this route perfectly safe is one or two big wires. The placements are obvious. The alternative is to put a bolt next to a big crack, which I think many quite rightly have a big problem with.

In the main I agree. Generally I'll warm up on War Memorial and never remember the wire/cam. If you took a fall approaching the belay you'd not be far off the deck.  To me this isn't about a bolt being near a big crack. Its 80% sport route already. Its  more the convenience, clip and go climbing on a crag that is 99% sport. Furthermore if someone (Martin) is happy to put the effort in to add the bolt then  If I want to have a lime trad experience in the Peak there are plenty of ace trad lime venues, with far cleaner rock to go at. Cornice routes just get filthy if not climbed regularly. Clean the trad routes maybe? Perhaps they will get an ascent or 2/season only to become filthy again the following year. The routes in question are good routes and if bolted would make an already good sport crag much better.

The Chee' Cornice is pretty much the only sport crag in the Peak where a good mileage session can be had & one can rag a load of routes in a short session when time pressed. Bolting these seldom done lines, in my opinion is a good call.