[The Aaronator]

I am fed up of being lulled into going to rubbish crags by guide book descriptions and photographs that are not particularly accurate or at least manage to sidestep the true aspect and condition of the rock - especially now that I have to find lower graded crags for my girlfriend.

Please let us know which crags you have visited and found to be complete rubbish or downright dangerous so I don't have to find out for myself.

I'll start things off with....

Giggleswick South - loose, blocky, dangerous, midgy, polished and loose.
Horseshoe Quarry - see above.

[Will Hunt]

Word up for Gigg South. Its enough to put someone off Yorks Lime for life. i.e. me.
Loose as fuck and with about one half decent route. Even that one (Black Swan Rising) had a big fuck off loose bit on it when I did it.
Yet still it remains the most frequented limestone crag of the Leeds Uni club apart from Malham and Kilnsey  When will they listen?

Wilton 2. Don't even bloody bother. And Anglezarke isn't really worth the effort. The most depressing thing about that massive Lancashire Rock guide is that you look around whatever bleak hole you've arrived in then look at the guide and just think "Ugh! There's more."

[GCW]

Tonks should visit Hoghton Bottoms.  Classic.

[Paul B]

oh for heavens sake. If ever there was a case for the shit heap, this is it.

Use some bloody common sense and be objective with your decisions and reasonable with your expectations.

[GCW]

Paul, whilst I generally agree with you, there are some guides that "big up" some truly awful venues, ones that should never have been visited.

These, I fear, are at the heart of A's post.

[rginns]

Wilton 2. Don't even bloody bother. And Anglezarke isn't really worth the effort. The most depressing thing about that massive Lancashire Rock guide is that you look around whatever bleak hole you've arrived in then look at the guide and just think "Ugh! There's more."

Behave, Wilton 2 has some quality routes, especially on Wilton wall, and throsher is class!

[Bonjoy]

Paul, whilst I generally agree with you, there are some guides that "big up" some truly awful venues, ones that should never have been visited.

These, I fear, are at the heart of A's post.

Examples please? 

Is it not the job of a guide to point out the merits of a crag as well as flag up the problems and limitations of a venue? One man's meat is another man's poison. The fact that two very popular crags are posted in the OP as examples of crap crags is proof of this. If you can't figure out from the pictures and descriptions in the guide that Horseshoe and Giggleswick are mid-grade UK sport crags, i.e. by definition fairly mediocre and loose and you go expecting the Verdon Gorge, then you've got nobody to blame but yourself.
 When a guide enthuses about, "some of the best low grade sport climbing in the area", the clue is in the caveat.

[GCW]

Paul, whilst I generally agree with you, there are some guides that "big up" some truly awful venues, ones that should never have been visited.

These, I fear, are at the heart of A's post.

Examples please? 

I refer mainly to the Brick, maybe it's just woefully out of date but it's had "updates" recently.  The fact that many of the lower quality places are described as having nice views, or being pleasant spots, may be a way of avoiding describing the rock/climbing.

You are quite right that the guide is there to give an honest assessment, and there are places some people just don't get on with.  Personally, I never liked Froggatt as much as other places- not because it's shit, just because I just didn't get on with it.

[The Aaronator]

Examples please? 

I would like to point you to the reletively recent opening and subsequent articals regarding Castleberg Crag at settle - http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1965

Please note that the text does point out the initial iffy quality of the crag but then goes on to say "an intense period of activity by a group of eight local climbers who, in conjunction with the council and supported by several local traders transformed the cliff into the excellent climbing venue it is today". Also, one should note the amount of stars the routes are given on the topo, the crag has an average of two stars.

Can this possibly be an honest assessment of the crags character. I think not. I have heard of numerous accidents and near misses due to falling rock. And what do the stars represent in this context? the climbs and rock do not seem to be much better than Giggleswick where most of the routes are given (an honest at least) 0-1 stars. At least UKC have updated the status of this crag in their crag log book "PLEASE NOTE: After the severe weather this winter (09/10) there have been reports of lots of loose rock on the easy routes on the left of the crag. In one reported case a very large flake fell near '3 Peaks Bunk Room'. Please be very careful and remember to wear your helmet!" It does not sound like the crag is going to get better with more traffic either.

I think the problem with over selling these mid grade crags is that they tend to attract beginers and novice climbers, like my girlfriend, who do not understand the possible threat they are exposed to and these crags get very busy so the likely hood of getting hit by a falling hold becomes, more likely...

I should add that I have never visited Castlebergh so everything I have said could be complete twaddle and if it is, I will eat my hat. For now, I will give Castlebergh a miss and take Lizzie to Castle Inn that in this context, is not a sh!te crag.

[Paul B]

sorry but I'm still struggling with this thread and I'm a lot more sober than I was last night.

I think the problem with over selling these mid grade crags is that they tend to attract beginers and novice climbers, like my girlfriend, who do not understand the possible threat they are exposed to and these crags get very busy so the likely hood of getting hit by a falling hold becomes, more likely...

Isn't this where personal judgement / education comes into play? Climbing is a risk activity, even in its safest forms.

You can't stop a lemming.

[GCW]

Absolutely, but it's a bit frustrating to drive 40 minutes to a crag that is described as good then arrive to find it's loose/ muddy.  It's only when you are physically there that you can assess it.

I think it's the vast minority of guide descriptions that this happens with, and most are excellent and honest opinions.   But it does happen occasionally.

[slackline]

Can this possibly be an honest assessment of the crags character. I think not. I have heard of numerous accidents and near misses due to falling rock. And what do the stars represent in this context? the climbs and rock do not seem to be much better than Giggleswick where most of the routes are given (an honest at least) 0-1 stars. At least UKC have updated the status of this crag in their crag log book "PLEASE NOTE: After the severe weather this winter (09/10) there have been reports of lots of loose rock on the easy routes on the left of the crag. In one reported case a very large flake fell near '3 Peaks Bunk Room'. Please be very careful and remember to wear your helmet!" It does not sound like the crag is going to get better with more traffic either.

I think the problem with over selling these mid grade crags is that they tend to attract beginers and novice climbers, like my girlfriend, who do not understand the possible threat they are exposed to and these crags get very busy so the likely hood of getting hit by a falling hold becomes, more likely...

Err, thats a good thing, since falling rock is one of the objective dangers involved in climbing it is a good thing for those new to the activity to become aware of and learn how to assess and deal with such dangers early on.  How else can you understand something without being exposed to it?  I can think of no better way.

Otherwise stick to indoor walls.

As to writing up guides, have you done any guide work? Major efforts to clean/tidy/rejuvenate/bolt/re-bolt new or neglected crags? It could simply be that whoever wrote up Castlebergh is proud of the work they've put in and does think that every route is worthy of the stars (as you note you've not been so can't really judge at all).  Maybe the stars will drop off over time, just like grades settle on the basis of consensus.

There are crags such as Craig Dorys on the Llyn which are literally falling down, doesn't stop new routes being put up whose quality is enthused about (see news reports at V12 about activity from Nick Bullock, Leigh McGinley and Stevie Haston).

[Bonjoy]

Examples please? 

I would like to point you to the reletively recent opening and subsequent articals regarding Castleberg Crag at settle - http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1965

Please note that the text does point out the initial iffy quality of the crag but then goes on to say "an intense period of activity by a group of eight local climbers who, in conjunction with the council and supported by several local traders transformed the cliff into the excellent climbing venue it is today". Also, one should note the amount of stars the routes are given on the topo, the crag has an average of two stars.

Can this possibly be an honest assessment of the crags character. I think not. I have heard of numerous accidents and near misses due to falling rock. And what do the stars represent in this context? the climbs and rock do not seem to be much better than Giggleswick where most of the routes are given (an honest at least) 0-1 stars. At least UKC have updated the status of this crag in their crag log book "PLEASE NOTE: After the severe weather this winter (09/10) there have been reports of lots of loose rock on the easy routes on the left of the crag. In one reported case a very large flake fell near '3 Peaks Bunk Room'. Please be very careful and remember to wear your helmet!" It does not sound like the crag is going to get better with more traffic either.

I think the problem with over selling these mid grade crags is that they tend to attract beginers and novice climbers, like my girlfriend, who do not understand the possible threat they are exposed to and these crags get very busy so the likely hood of getting hit by a falling hold becomes, more likely...

I should add that I have never visited Castlebergh so everything I have said could be complete twaddle and if it is, I will eat my hat. For now, I will give Castlebergh a miss and take Lizzie to Castle Inn that in this context, is not a sh!te crag.

I do fully agree with you regarding the prevalence of excessive starring on new mid-grade sport routes in general. It is annoying on various levels; it undermines and devalues the starring system and makes life difficult for new routers trying to star stuff honestly/conservatively.
To be fair though this is often a problem on internet topos/databases which gets rationalised to some extent by the time things go to print.
I also saw the article on Castlebergh and based on past experience instantly made the assumption that it would be another loose and overstarred new midgrade venue. I suppose this is based on years of experience, something which beginners will not benefit from.
So whilst I still disagree with the framing of the original post, as it is too broad and where applicable generally the fault of the crag developers rather than the guide writers, I do agree that there is an issue in the UK with developers exaggerating the merits and underplaying the looseness of a ceaseless tide of ever more worthless low grade clip ups.
I had a day at Blues Scar a few years ago and the difference in the value of each star on the established trad routes compared to the new sport routes was simply ridiculous. I also found it bizarre how no-star trad routes suddenly become two star classics when they were retro bolted. You could argue that the routes work better as clip ups, but you could also argue that developers are kicking the arse out of the starring system.

[petejh]

  

Penmaen Head would be a good crag to take Mrs Aaronator to. It looks like shit but actually climbs very well. As for the stars, don't get me started just subtract at least one per route and call it good.

[TobyD]

although i'd usually fall firmly on the side of thinking that people should be responsible for assessing quality etc themselves, i have been to Giggleswick South once, thinking 'low 6s ... how bad can they be?' actually really quite bad, i got pretty sick of concentrating on which direction i'd try and throw every hold if it broke off, rather than on climbing. Not only was it a bit rubbish, it appeared (on my limited encounter) to be almost grid bolted rubbish as well.
Horseshoe, on the other hand, has its uses, (main wall only) at least the base of the crag's flat, and its a bit like being at a mediocre climbing wall, but outside. Which has a *certain* appeal. It's sunny too. 

[SA Chris]

I can generally find some merit in every crag I have visited, and make the most of them when I visit, but Chudleigh is the only crag I have ever visited I can truly describe as log.

No doubt there will be many who disagree.

[chris_j_s]

I try not to wade into these debates too often but here goes...

There is definitely an element of rose tinted glasses in the number of stars given to low-mid grade sport venues (in Yorkshire at least, I don't have too much experience elsewhere) BUT there is also a tendancy for people to go the other way and declare everything so loose that you can almost see it rocking in the wind.

As ever, there is a balance to be struck somewhere down the middle.

It is common knowledge that we don't have much good low-mid grade climbing in this country, however there is definitely a growing demand for it and where there is demand someone will invariably oblige.

I am the crag moderator for Castlebergh on UKC and added the warning about loose rock after I became aware of the incident referred to in the message. To put it in context though, I am not aware of any other accidents/incidents there this year and I live very close and climb there quite a bit. If anyone has ever asked I try to give as honest an appraisal as possible about the place. This is typically:

Left hand side - 4+ - 6a very loose and not very good. Take a helmet. Is away from the public footpath though.
Central buttress - 4+ - 6b, not great but occasional ok-ish route, some looseness will always be present. This is the most dangerous bit of Castlebergh because a public footpath runs directly below it.
Right hand side - 6c - 7a+ much more solid and actually has some very good routes (IMO). It isn't Malham though!

Regarding Gigg South even when I was a moderately new climber I was able to read between the lines that there was quite a bit of looseness - there definitely isn't anyone trying to conceal that fact. Regarding the quality of the routes there is definitely a lot of crap, however there is certainly more than "one half decent route". It's pretty damn easy to see whats loose and the I know the definitive guide usually highlights loose blocks and areas of rock in general both in the text and in the topos. FWIW the routes on sector laughter are good, in particular Silent Laughter, and spread around the place are numerous other "half decent" routes on which some fun can be had.

I do agree that it is grid bolted though and I struggle to justify why the main developers keep finding more routes even after their own downloadable guide says that its been all developed out.

More generally, a big part of climbing outdoors is assessing the dangers for yourself. The state of the rock at the places we climb is constantly changing and you need to have a keenly developed sense of when you're own safety is on the line. Honestly the loose bits on these low grade crags are easily there for all to see and perhaps if you aren't seeing it you should be climbing indoors! 

Oddly enough the biggest bit of rock to come down off the crag at me was on the Catwalk in Malham... someday someone will pull down that block on Puddlejumper too, which is certainly as big as the block that fell off Castlebergh earlier this year! 

[Teaboy]

oh for heavens sake. If ever there was a case for the shit heap, this is it.

Use some bloody common sense and be objective with your decisions and reasonable with your expectations.

You seem to have a bit pf a bee in your bonnet about this but let's face it, both of your replies so far could equally have applied to this thread:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,15353.0.html

Horses for courses and all that

[Paul B]

If you say so, I'll consider myself

I have the same problem finding mid grade sport routes for my other half and I'm aware that the quality just doesn't exist in the UK like it does in easily accessible Europe, you have to compromise on something.
I can list quite a few low grade sport venues that don't flick my switch for whatever reason but when needs must, compromise must be sought. Horseshoe is one that I simply don't enjoy, but look at the amount of cars parked there daily, it must be working for some people.

It seems to me that the quality routes in the selected grade range are covered by a different discipline.

[Adam Lincoln]

As mentioned. Pick up a copy of the A55 guide.

[Paul B]

As mentioned. Pick up a copy of the A55 guide.

to add a positive note I (and the Mrs) thought that the RHS of LPT was good if a little bold at times.

[Falling Down]

I like the main wall routes at Horseshoe - they're all solid and the climbing is good.  Horses for courses I guess.

[match]

Oh come on Will, Wilton 2 is good and Anglezarke is class. Given that you are currently involved in the exercise in misleading the British public that is the Yorkshire Grit guide 2010+ how you have the barefaced cheek to diss Anglezarke whilst bigging up the climbing gold that is Adel Crag is utterly beyond me! So shit even Dave Musgrove says it's cack... Eavestone? Spofforth? Numerous overbolted mid-grade choss heaps in the Dales??

FWIW in Lancashire - Lester Mill Quarry is gash, Cadshaw Quarries are rank, Ousel's Nest was overgrown and uninspiring when I visited, Round Barn Quarry is mostly cack, Billinge Hill Quarry is a beautiful shade of green and is rubbish, Central Quarry failed to inspire me to put my rock boots on, Stanworth is now a rubbish tip again, and Warton Small Quarry is charmless unless you are attracted to dog shit.

[Zods Beard]

Wilton 2. Don't even bloody bother. And Anglezarke isn't really worth the effort. The most depressing thing about that massive Lancashire Rock guide is that you look around whatever bleak hole you've arrived in then look at the guide and just think "Ugh! There's more."

Tit.

[The Aaronator]

Left hand side - 4+ - 6a very loose and not very good. Take a helmet. Is away from the public footpath though.
Central buttress - 4+ - 6b, not great but occasional ok-ish route, some looseness will always be present. This is the most dangerous bit of Castlebergh because a public footpath runs directly below it.
Right hand side - 6c - 7a+ much more solid and actually has some very good routes (IMO). It isn't Malham though!

Thanks chris_j_s, I can now make an informed choice. The problem is that one does not get this type of info from articals like the one discussed.

I think I am a little sensitive this general issue because I am only too aware of the danger posed by falling holds etc. and I do not want to put Lizzie in harms way needlessly. There is still the issue though, that some crags are just complete rubbish whether there is any danger there or not.

Oddly enough the biggest bit of rock to come down off the crag at me was on the Catwalk in Malham... someday someone will pull down that block on Puddlejumper too, which is certainly as big as the block that fell off Castlebergh earlier this year! 

Funnily enough, the nearest miss I had (and it was very close) a year or so ago was when a lump of rock about the size of a cricket bat fell from the said block on Puddlejumper.