[Paul B]

Sorry if this seems obvious to some however I've asked a few people (please don't be offended if you're one of them) and recieved quite different responses:

Basically after returning to do a bit of trad I've realised my rack needs a bit of sprucing, especially if I intend to look further afield (which I do) i.e. towards Gogarth / Slate and plenty of other places that'll make anybody that knows me spit tea over their keyboard.

I've spent a good few hours in CragX fondling various things and getting ever more confused by the sheer amount of choice and shiny things so I'd be very grateful if the UKB tradsters could come out of the woodwork and give me some input on what it looks like I need to make this into a useable general trad rack and furthermore any more detailed responses (like the Astro nut feedback on the other thread) would be gratefully appreciated.

While I'm at it my current rope is a bit of a cable so that'll be getting replaced for a nice 70m sport rope sometime, problem is I (or we) don't have half ropes which I think are going to be necessary for a lot of the stuff I have in mind. I was thinking about bypassing the massive hit of a sport rope + 2 half ropes + rack by buying two light (9.2) singles to use together. Is this an entirely stupid plan?

So far I've identified the small end to be very lacking (i.e nothing fits on slate) and my quickdraws to be utter dog turd for trad (too stiff and short and hence a bit worrying on any wire placement), an extra set (of different) wires. Beyond that I'm a little stuck.

Thanks and apologies for the punterish post. Here is what I have:

Wires:
Rocks 1 - 10
2 x Peanuts

Cams:
1 x Rock Empire 0.25
2 x Rock Empire 0.75
1 x Wildcountry Freind 1.5
1 x Rock + Run 1.5
1 x Rock + Run 2.0
1 x Rock Empire 3.0
1 x Rock + Run 3.0 (slightly bigger)
1 x Rock Empire 5.0

Hex:
Rockcentric 9 (Bought for me)

Slings:
2 x 8ft dyneema

QD's:
11 x Petzl Spirits
10 x HB (wide tapes very heavy!)

Misc:
Nutkey
Belay plate
Prussics
60m (ish) 10mm ish rope/cable (pretty close to retirement)
a skyhook (Damn right)

[Adam Lincoln]

Well, my rack consists of

Full set of Camalots.
Full set of Zeros.
1-10 Rocks.
1-10 Wallnuts.
14 light draws.
4 very long draws.
Assorted slings.

[Fultonius]

You shoulda started this on UKC, sat back and enjoyed 

BD camalots are waaay nicer to use than those rock'n'run / rock empire bad boys. In the smaller sizes I rate the C3s but the new mastercams (fancy versions of aliens) look well nice http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/master_cam.html  never used them though.

Never used the new DMM cams, but they look nice. 

Quickdraws - DMM light and long. The lightest ones are bit fiddly but they make some very nice mid-sized ones: http://www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=2&pid2=44 I'd get mainly longer sizes 18/25cm or just make up slingdraws: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2332

Rocks: much of a muchness. The newer ones are nice colours and are hollowed out, so nice and light. DMM/WC is a personal and rock-type preference. I used to prefer the DMMs but now I find they get stuck more often. (i.e. maybe better hold, but harder to clean)

Never been a fan of peanuts - they're too hard and don't bite well into the rock. BD micros much better. These days there's loads of brassn RP style micros, never used them though. Worth a look.

Hope that helps.

[Adam Lincoln]

Well, my rack consists of

Full set of Camalots.
Full set of Zeros.
1-10 Rocks.
1-10 Wallnuts.
14 light draws.
4 very long draws.
Assorted slings.

Oh and lots of small random wires.

[erm, sam]

I am in a similar position, though my Gogarth rack ambitions are not so immediate as yours..
1 x wallnut set,
1 x micro wall nut set
(1 x rocks set to follow at some point)
Full set dragon cams,
Full set Torque nuts,
3x 60cm slings as extendabel quickdraws -it apears these are now called sling draws
mostly 18cm quick draws,
er thats it.

[Paul B]

thanks for the input so far.

Maybe if I can first identify whats lacking I can start worrying about details like brands etc.

[remus]

Id add another set of normal wires and some micros to your current collection, then 3-4 big quickdraws (i.e. 60cm slings with a couple of krabs.) After that most other stuff would just be improving on the stuff you've already got (i.e. nicer trad quickdraws, lighter cams and so forth.)

As for brands, personally id go for  wallnuts for a bit of variety and IMPs cause they're cheaper than the BD ones and are just as good in my opinion.

[Paul B]

I'm leaning towards:

a set of wallnuts
a set of Metolius Astronuts or DMM Brass Offsets or IMPS. I think I'll be avoiding the BD ones as the extra bite of brass on slate is worth it from what I've heard.

The quickdraws need improving they're all short and heavy.

[remus]

Id go for the IMPs myself, the astro nuts are pretty weak (2-2.5KN across the range) which is a bit shit compared to the IMPs (4-7KN across the range.) I find the normal ones more useful than offsets as well. Lots of good geeky info about weights and strengths and stuff here: http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Narrow_Crack_Protection_15.html

As for the draws, these own brand jobs from needlesports looks pretty good for the money: http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Quickdraws_38.html Fairly light as well.

[Sloper]

I've got some really old and shit gear, like >25 year old hex's and original nuts on tape / cord (also >20 years old) with some really, and I mean really shit kong bonatti crabs from Tanky's that will give you that 'gnarly trad dude' credibility.

Obviously this kit comes without warranty or anything other than do not use for climbing srtifikite, u then again trad is all about not letting go so you'll be fine.

PS Mrs Sloper cut up the rope I found on the Cronlech in about 1989 in 2005, in my view it was still going strong and I'm yet to find the bastard that disposed of the harness I bought in '88, so what if it was so surry I needed a knife to rethread it, the wild country gunfighter was surely one of the best hranesses ever made.

Now do I have another armangac?

Sillt question

[Paul B]

Now do I have another armangac?

Sillt question

Yahh... Tigers..... Cameron... Nom Nom Nom... Armangac...

[Sloper]

Indeed.

 

[iain]

For light and long quickdraws you'd be hard pressed to find anything better than these, especially at this price:

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/dmm-phantom-quickdraw-773142

They're slightly smaller crabs than normal but not at all fiddly to use

[kingholmesy]

If I was you the first thing I'd do is get a second set of wires, plus a selection of medium to large micros.

I prefer Walnuts 1-6 and rocks 7-10, but you'll get a better deal buying a full set of one brand.

Next I'd buy double ropes as they're infinitely better than a single for tradding.  I'd recommend getting 60s.  You can ab further if multi-pitching and can sometimes run pitches together, plus you're guaranteed to be able to climb anything on grit on one rope doubled up.

After that I'd get a few more quick draws.  I reckon 16 draws of varying lengths from 10cm to 60cm.  With 30cm and 60cm draws you have the option of tripling them up or clipping them long, although I reallly like 15cm draws too - short enough to feel like your gear's right by you when you place it, but long enough that it's less likely to lift.  I'd also carry a couple of 120cm slings with screw-gates.  In my opinion there's no point carrying any 240cm slings - you can always loop the ropes round stuff for belays.

After that it would just be a matter of pimping your cams.  I love camalots from 0.5 upwards, and am happy with my new Metolius cams for smaller sizes.

Finally, I love that you have to explain that someone bought your hex for you!  Although generally only useful for bashing seagulls, two or three small to medium hexes on wire can come in handy on some rock types.

Hope that helps.

[Paul B]

right... we're getting somewhere here.

Nobody has yet commented on the twin 9.2's instead of a single and then two halfs (which is serious outlay)?

[kingholmesy]

right... we're getting somewhere here.

Nobody has yet commented on the twin 9.2's instead of a single and then two halfs (which is serious outlay)?

I've never climbed on two thin singles, but if you can afford it I reckon you should just go for normal doubles and a new sport rope.  The doubles should last ages cos you (hopefully!) won't be taking as many whippers on them as you would with a sport/wall rope.

[Paul B]

I've never climbed on two thin singles, but if you can afford it I reckon you should just go for normal doubles and a new sport rope.  The doubles should last ages cos you (hopefully!) won't be taking as many whippers on them as you would with a sport/wall rope.

In an ideal world, however the beal joker will be around 140 I reckon so adding two halfs to that and you're looking at well over 300 before I've even looked at metal.

[Fultonius]

You could go twin singles. The major advantage of halfs is the lower impact force, so you've got less chance of ripping shoddy gear. Although, I guess if you go for Jokers then this isn't so much of an issue - I might do that next time I need new ropes!


If the IMPs are considered better for slate, then do it! (just don't get peanuts.)

16 draws sounds a lot! The most I ever take is 14 and that's only on multi-pitch when I think I'll place a lot of nuts. Depends how you rack your cams though - I have a wiregate on each one, so often don't put a quickdraw on a cam. Also depends how much gear you place. I guess on limestone you might need that much?

[Drew]

Here is my opinion. Take it, or leave it.

In terms of ropes, bite the bullet. don't fann around with two singles used as halfs. They'll just piss you off as half, and you know you'd find fault with it as a single too.

Wires:
Rocks 1 - 10          I'd add another full set, probably DMM 1-11, or Metolius Curve Nuts
2 x Peanuts          I like them, but I'd get a full set rather than just a couple. However you might be better with...

SMALL WIRES

          ...DMM Offsets. These will be great in Slate, but to be honest you'll probably want a load i.e. Offsets, IMPs, and Micro Stoppers

Cams:
1 x Rock Empire 0.25          Not sure how these size up, but for this, I'm going to assume they're slightly smaller than WC
2 x Rock Empire 0.75         
1 x Wildcountry Freind 1.5
1 x Rock + Run 1.5
1 x Rock + Run 2.0
1 x Rock Empire 3.0
1 x Rock + Run 3.0 (slightly bigger)
1 x Rock Empire 5.0

          Not wanting to re-iterate what others have said, the Camalots, or Dragon cams are far superior to all other regular cams. The double axle doesn't weigh much more these days, but does increase the range massively!. Personally I'd go for as many as possible, as Gogarth will take all of them! You don't have to carry them all, but it's nice to have them. From what it looks like you have, I'd get a couple of smaller ones, and maybe fill in the gaps (0.25-0.75, 2-3)

Hex:
Rockcentric 9 (Bought for me)          Never been that fussed by Hexes. The size 9 is useful for hitting your nutkey, when removing stuck gear

Slings:
2 x 8ft dyneema          This needs serious review!

          You need some 4ft slings (as skinny as you're comfortable with - they go down to 6mm!), for threading thin threads, hooking thin flakes, and maybe for some very long extension. I'd suggest 4 or 5, and probably 8mm.
Maybe another 8fter, and a 16fter or a 5m Cordelette. Personally I'd go for more is more, as they're great for equalising loads of dodgy gear below the crux, or at the belay (remember there needs to be enough for 2 belays, plus a full pitch)

QD's:
11 x Petzl Spirits
10 x HB (wide tapes very heavy!)          I'd sell/bin these

          There are loads of great krabs/QDs these days. I'd go for light, but decent size. I've got a few Phantoms, and think they're big enough, but prefer my Spectres. Look at the Spectre, Spectre 2, or Helium. The Helium is expensive, but if you want a clean nose, it's probably the best one out there. Avoid the Nano23!
          In terms of the length I'd go for at least:
          2x60cm
          4x30cm
          6x20cm
          4x10/15cm

Misc:
Nutkey
Belay plate
Prussics
60m (ish) 10mm ish rope/cable (pretty close to retirement)
a skyhook (Damn right)          Maybe get another one. They are really useful. On Slate, you'll definitely get to use it. Very useful for holding the weight of the rope while you're shaking out (more so in the Pass)

P.S. As far as I am aware, small brass nuts (HB/DMM offsets, IMPs, RP's), are actually very hard. They don't "bite" due to soft metal. I don't know if the BD Micro Stoppers are the same. They feel like they'd bite, so be good for keeping you off the floor, but harder for your second to strip.

P.P.S. I'd also recommend a few Screwgates (I'm assuming you just forgot to write them down). The DMM Big Boa is brilliant. You can squeeze three clove hitches from half ropes onto it. The new one is quite light too.

[Paul B]

Ta drew...

Yeah I've got some screwgates but TBH not that many going spare. All the obvious things have screwgates on them (plates / prussiks), that probably leaves about four.

I sorted it so I had enough to equalise bolt belays in the verdon.

[Will Hunt]

I think we need more info on what kind of trad you're looking at doing. So Gogarth and Slate have been mentioned. Slate is basically standard stuff with a bit of small stuff and Gogarth is plenty of standard gear as far as I'm aware. Don't dick about with 50m ropes. Get 60m. You can abseil further so you can be sat in the bar while your mates are still trying to hot knife their rope with a nut key. Also for the shorted grit crags you can use one of the ropes and merely have your second tie in half way down and climb on the two ends.

Apart from that are you planning on hitting the big mountain crags. Its all a bit rock dependent but I find 2 full sets of nuts to be pretty essential on mountain trad. Also, sort out the sling situation and before you do have a look at the drop test video that DMM just released. Might make you think twice about Dyneema!

What grades are you planning on climbing? I gather you're pretty handy on the boulders but if you're cruising around anywhere up to E3 I'd have a couple of hexes on the harness. People seem to not know how to place them anymore and shy away from them at the risk of being seen as a punter. They go in nicely in a lot of good places.

[Will Hunt]

And remember the golden rule that I'll be drilling into Fresher's come September. Bad bad things happen to those who don't carry enough spare screwgates and slings.

And, at the risk of being grossly patronising, if you're idea of rope management is a Metolius rope bag then brush up on the ropework and general skillz before heading to the G spot. I went there with a strong lad once who I think had climbed E6 but had no clue what an equalised anchor was. 3 bits of gear (one was a mangy old peg) with a clove hitch on each. That was it. 

[Paul B]

Apart from that are you planning on hitting the big mountain crags. Its all a bit rock dependent but I find 2 full sets of nuts to be pretty essential on mountain trad. Also, sort out the sling situation and before you do have a look at the drop test video that DMM just released. Might make you think twice about Dyneema!

Yes

It makes me think twice about dyneema for belays. My f*cking belay loop is dyneema.

What grades are you planning on climbing?

How the f*ck should I know? In all seriousness I can't tell until the skills get brushed up a bit.

Did alright in Mello and verdon with my rope shizzle but thanks for the heads up.

[Will Hunt]

  Just wondering if there were any objectives in mind. I only say about the ropes after mine went for bathtime trying to keep them together on a small ledge at Flodiggary 

[Drew]

Apart from that are you planning on hitting the big mountain crags. Its all a bit rock dependent but I find 2 full sets of nuts to be pretty essential on mountain trad. Also, sort out the sling situation and before you do have a look at the drop test video that DMM just released. Might make you think twice about Dyneema!

If this is news to anyone, then they need to make sure they read up a bit more about climbing gear. Since Dyneema was first used in slings, it's been known it has a low melting temperature, and it has very little elasticity. Therefore it should always be used with something dynamic (i.e. your rope). As long as there's always a bit of rope ion the system, you'll be fine. It's not worth worrying about. It's mostly a problem when doing multiple abs, and you clip straight into a sling. That's when it can, and does, cause accidents.