[PeterH]

I read this and (for what it's worth) disagree with many of the UK responses saying we (I still have my UK passport ) don't have sports routes, crap weather etc.

We have lived here in Sardinia for 3 years now and now know quite a few good continental climbers (lots doing 8a in 1-2 goes, a few 8c-9a) who pass by each year, summer and winter since there are crags for all seasons, to get info on new routes, or to bolt routes with us, or to ask what routes they can free, or even stay with us at our guesthouse.

I think there's a lot of whinging going on by the Brits. Ask someone from Milan (two 8c+ climbers I know) where are the nearest really steep crags for them to train on - there aren't any! In the winter they go bouldering to Cresciano, or one bloke trains on a fingerboard, another 1-5-9... Or check out the weather in Prague in the winter...

These guys, most of whom have families/jobs/kids, train / climb hard with the facilities they have at home - a lot indoor, probably with lots of other good climbers for company/stimulation - then come here regularly (twice a year for 2-4 weeks at a time) and do hard routes. For instance, this Xmas there are loads of climbers dropping by to get info on new routes. They come here for the climbing and good weather. Quite a few people come here and buy holiday flats, rather than at the more developed Cala Gonone, since the climbing's better all year round (CG not so good summer).

I WOULD say, though, that building up a good knowledge of your "destination area" and routes to do there helps a great deal. A big problem (the major problem, in my view) with sports climbing is that the history/line/beauty of a route which can really motivate you gets lost if you just think of the grade and print off a list from 8a.nu of the routes at your target grade with the most ascents (= most doable, fewest surprises, etc). Maybe one reason why bouldering is popular is that this "everything other than the grade" info is very available - you just look at the boulder or youTube! You need to know your good-weather destination as well as Raven Tor 

If you want to do your first 8a or whatever, it helps your motivation to have seen it, know that it's a good route, know that it's a respected route, know who else has done it, talk to them,...and going back to an area time and time again allows you to develop a good knowledge of the area. It's NOT necessary to live there, and many people wouldn't or couldn't earn a living teaching English...

What do people think?
Peter

[Paul B]

link?

[PeterH]

The new/repeat route info is on http://www.sardiniaclimb.com/NuovoScEng/ListaNewsEn.html, our stuff is mainly in the Baunei area: me (Peter Herold), our Czech friend Jan Honza Kares, Maurizio Oviglia, Simone Sarti...

...more detailed info, photos on the blog / photo album of our web site www.peteranne.it

We give the route info to people who aren't staying with us, often they leave a contribution to the bolt fund, as well as those staying with us.  ciao Peter

[account_inactive]

I think you are missing the point when you speak of Italians having to travel many hours.  We have to leave the country to get on long stamina plods.  I don't see that many euro wads turning up and rinsing Ravens Tor......in fact I don't see Stevie doing that either.

Our grades are hard compared to the euro spots FACT.  Most Brit climbers will climb harder abroad FACT.  I'm quite happy about that.  It makes us all look like wads when we are on holiday

[north_country_boy]

We have to leave the country to get on long stamina plods.

It makes us all look like wads when we are on holiday

However in reality we look like complete punters, as although we may find the moves easy, we have generally shit, stamina/endurance!

I've certainly never ever felt like 'a wad' when in Europe........pretty sure most people from the UK......minus McClure & Simpson would say the same (and even then Steve would be overly modest!  )

Why are we always seeking an explanation or excuse? Train hard, put the time in, do the routes then claim the moral high ground, after all how many Brits have climbed 8c/8c+ in the UK and abroad top even comment on!?

[Paul B]

You may think Brits whinge but when I see posts asking if one face of one boulder at Almscliff might be dry out of the whole of the country I don't think its completely unjustified?

With regards to Euro routes, the fact is they just aren't the same ball game. We may be governed by the same basic grading system but a comparison between the two styles is nigh on impossible. Its like comparing a time in a sprint vs. a marathon. Has anyone out there ever tried to normalise world record times in the two? Thats exactly what the grading system tries to achieve.

Having just spent the last 6 months travelling around europe, doing mainly sport, I can assure you all that grades change ridiculously between countries as well as areas. Some are in line with the British stuff but not many.
A friend once said to me "how many routes have a Fnt7c+ crux at F8a+?" which I replied "pump up the power". I'm fairly certain if you put any of the Spanish operating at that grade on PUTP they'd be shot down in big fat flames and think you were insane for suggesting it at 8a+. Surprise surprise if you reverse it and put a tor wad on something requiring an 80m rope they'd fade and die by about the 4th bolt.
Given the time though things can change, there are some really great British sport climbers. Look at Bolger for a good example. Mclure. Watson.
Stevie can jump on his high horse and call us all a load of whingers but the fact of the matter is that he did what he did abroad. Incredible achievement though that is, it isn't Northern Lights.

(I think I better go and do some pull ups)

[PeterH]

"I think you are missing the point when you speak of Italians having to travel many hours.  We have to leave the country to get on long stamina plods."

So do the people I'm referring to, that's my point, that people living in many Continental cities and climbing hard face exactly the same difficulties as Brits (OK, the weather might not be quite so crap, but the foothills of the Alps are not exactly the south of Spain or Sardinia). With low cost flights Brits can get to the south of Spain/France/Italy in roughly the same time and maybe cheaper than people from Milan, Vienna,...

There seems to be the assumption that sports climbing = "stamina plods". I can only speak really about Sardinia where we live...and can tell you that the 8a "vertical" or "overhanging slabs" round here see a lot fewer ascents, and if you do them you get much more respect, that the steep big-holes routes at Isili which never get wet so you see all the chalk...

...so these shorter more PE routes would seem to be the obvious targets for you guys as well as for my Milan friends...

...or maybe it's the fact that me and my mates are all around 40-45 years old and learned to climb walls not overhangs ?

Peter
PS my best RP a modest 7b: I go best on routes with short intense fingery sections, "that'd be E4 6b at Pen Trywn" and suffer more on steeper routes with big holds at the same grade...

[Doylo]

The grade thing is important, if i want to try an 8c on my local cliffs i have a choice of three, all of which are ridiculously hard for 8c. I know i could do one with half the effort at Margalef etc... LPT has fickle conditions and its tidal, Malham and Raven Tor are often either too hot or too wet and Kilnsey too cold or to wet. Its a battle trying to climb hard in this country.  This is why when a brit does a 9a chances are it will be abroad (simpson, macleod, add bolger soon to the list).
 Re Stevie's 9a- Gaz went there this year and got beasted on a 8a, he said the place was BEASTLY! Respect.

[Paul B]

So do the people I'm referring to, that's my point, that people living in many Continental cities and climbing hard face exactly the same difficulties as Brits (OK, the weather might not be quite so crap, but the foothills of the Alps are not exactly the south of Spain or Sardinia). With low cost flights Brits can get to the south of Spain/France/Italy in roughly the same time and maybe cheaper than people from Milan, Vienna,...

Surely you're not comparing a 6-7 hour drive to driving to the airport, parking, flying, driving, accommodation etc. Its simply not the same and low cost is not low cost (fuel, parking, flight, tax, rental, accom) compared to a tank of fuel and sleeping in your van? Thats just nonce sense.

There seems to be the assumption that sports climbing = "stamina plods". I can only speak really about Sardinia where we live...and can tell you that the 8a "vertical" or "overhanging slabs" round here see a lot fewer ascents, and if you do them you get much more respect, that the steep big-holes routes at Isili which never get wet so you see all the chalk...

The majority of hard routes aren't in that style though are they? Rhetorical.

[Steve R]

Re Stevie's 9a- Gaz went there this year and got beasted on a 8a, he said the place was BEASTLY! Respect.

I'd second this.  I was deep in Haston Country over the summer and the majority of crags actually seemed pretty hard to me.  Bedheilac area seemed harder than yorkshire grades. (and not disimilar in style some of 'em.)

Regarding Grotte de Sabart specifically, I couldn't even dog the moves on an 8a I tried in there, possibly/probably the same one that Gaz got beasted upon.  What does that say about the difficulty of a 9a in there relative to the UK or anywhere else?  Not alot really I don't suppose but anyway...

[PeterH]

Surely you're not comparing a 6-7 hour drive to driving to the airport, parking, flying, driving, accommodation etc. Its simply not the same and low cost is not low cost (fuel, parking, flight, tax, rental, accom) compared to a tank of fuel and sleeping in your van? Thats just nonce sense

Ferry from mainland Italy to Sardinia return €300 with cabin (is overnight) but you do have your car here, makes Ryanair+Easyjet's 6 weekly 2,5 hour flights + car hire not seem too bad a deal. Once you get here accommodation is cheap. I guess Spain and France similar.

The majority of hard routes aren't in that style though are they? Rhetorical.

Some of the steep routes here will be downgraded in the new guide, I'm told. It seems that the grades assigned when steep routes were a new thing were too high, the new guide will change this, and it is funny to see people who RP steep 8a struggle on a 7a slab (Even I burnt one of them off  ). It'd seem logical that people who do a lot of bouldering but don't have access to 40m steep routes with big holds target the shorter, more intense or more technical routes, or is that too obvious? Many of the 8a wall climbs round here have only had 1-2 ascents...

[Paul B]

Ferry from mainland Italy to Sardinia return €300 with cabin (is overnight) but you do have your car here, makes Ryanair+Easyjet's 6 weekly 2,5 hour flights + car hire not seem too bad a deal. Once you get here accommodation is cheap. I guess Spain and France similar.

Not a bad deal and cheap are completely different things and again I don't think your Milan buddies will be forking that out every weekend they fancy a nip to Cresc.

Many of the 8a wall climbs round here have only had 1-2 ascents...

We're not talking 8a, we're talking 8c minimum.

[saltbeef]

this is rather a tedious thread.
You're out of your mind. Milan is near a lot of climbing.
i live 15mins from manchester airport. a fly drive is not the same as driving your van a couple of hours in an evening as all the bureaucracy involved in a fly drive. Its still not as cheap sleeping in a van or at your mates.
I'm not going to burn the planet flying to spain every weekend either. Who'd go with you too? Flights aren't that cheap, I don't have £200 spare to go climbing every weekend.
i admit i whinge, i've had 3 days outside since going to font in october (and I could have had a few more but the weather has been shit and I've got a job.)
British standards are shit? We (the collective UKB masses) go bouldering, we're not that bad at it. I agree most of the punters who do routes stoically all year have an average grade of hvs, but why try harder there are loads of routes on stanage at that grade.
As has been stated before the type of routes here aren't like the continent, they're cruxy as hell. they have really small holds and demand a requisite power level for success. That Pierre Bollinger chap, Bock,and that Japanese wad have quite a few big numbers between them (multiple 9a's) but fail to redpoint lowly 8cs at the tor (evolution). How does that work?
Vertical 8as?! look at malham, its barely overhanging and people climb 8as there each weekend.
Look at the crags in Europe, look at the English ones. I can think of about 8 8as at the tor. There are hundreds at Siurana or Ceuse and look at the crags nearby.
Seeing as you live in the south of Europe near good climbing, where your less likely to get injured on minging crimps, why don't you climb hard?  My excuse? I've been sport climbing once this year, then pump up the power got wet, I'd rather go bouldering.

[cofe]

It depresses me that it appears the world must revolve around sport climbing.

[Doylo]

It depresses me that it appears the world must revolve around sport climbing.

well it does in Chuffing conka 

[dave]

It depresses me that it appears the world must revolve around sport climbing.

its like everyone's forgotten about all those 4m E8s that we're still waiting for stevie to come to the peak and crush.

[abarro81]

I don't quite get what your point is in your original post - it's all a bit rambling (like the following). Sticking to sport climbing for the moment...

Yes, there are some good climbers who live in Europe and live far away from the rock or in rainy places. Yes, some of them climb hard (like Paul said, sticking to the original thread it's really 8c and up so talking about 8as is a bit pointless). However there are some Brits who climb hard so anacdoal evidence of a couple of italians living away from rock, training hard and crushing doesn't really tell us much . How good are the Italians in general compared to us at sport atthe top levels (I have no idea)?

Are you saying there are as many strong Europeans living in places which are crap for climbing as there are in places which have the advantages mentioned in the old thread (weather, high quality crags to inspire, good sport/comp scenes, routes with extensions, routes which are less conditions dependent, steep long routes etc)? Can you back that up, because it would surprise me. Where do most of the best Italian climbers live - close to the good sport climbing (with some of the above advantages) or far away from it? I know nothing about Italy or it's climbers but I'd know what my guess would be

I'm not sure we're going to get anything new out of this thread - people will come up with the same reasons why so many Brits just boulder, why we're not as motivated as the Basque Beasts and thus why we've not got as many sport climbers in the >8c region as France or Spain.

[Andy F]

The grade thing is important, if i want to try an 8c on my local cliffs i have a choice of three, all of which are ridiculously hard for 8c. I know i could do one with half the effort at Margalef etc... LPT has fickle conditions and its tidal, Malham and Raven Tor are often either too hot or too wet and Kilnsey too cold or to wet. Its a battle trying to climb hard in this country. 

And we've got mud on our boots when we start  (name the quote). But seriously, getting good conditions in this country is as hard as climbing the routes. As a Malham/Kilnsey regular I know of 2 8c and above ascents in Yorkshire this year. And conditions weren't bad...

[PeterH]

Are you saying there are as many strong Europeans living in places which are crap for climbing as there are in places which have the advantages mentioned in the old thread (weather, high quality crags to inspire, good sport/comp scenes, routes with extensions, routes which are less conditions dependent, steep long routes etc)? Can you back that up, because it would surprise me. Where do most of the best Italian climbers live - close to the good sport climbing (with some of the above advantages) or far away from it? I know nothing about Italy or it's climbers but I'd know what my guess would be

My point and data is simply that:-
1. people in the UK often talk about sports climbing as if it were only "stamina plods" and this manifestly isn't true. As my mate from Milan said when we talked yesterday about this, "look at Action Directe!" Good point...he continued, "The 8c+ I freed this year is 4 bolts!"
2. such shorter, more bouldery routes (you would think) should be more up the street of good boulderers/those who have to train a lot indoors and (judging by the comments, when I lived in Sheffield Ron Fawcett was just freeing the Prow...) those who go well at Raven Tor rather than those with easy access to steep long routes etc. Just like the blokes from Milan.
3. If the 1990's wall climbing 8a's round where I live (think of Jerzu) are so easy , how come they have had so few repeats? And the repeats that there've been are usually by 40-somethings? Many younger Sardinian climbers do overhanging 8a's and harder at Isili but don't go near the wall climbs (= find them hard)... we don't bolt steeper (overhanging) sectors near Jerzu because it seems no-one wants to climb anything but very steep routes with many successive but individually easier moves...

So, in a nutshell, I would have thought that the UK-based climbers might enjoy themselves more (that's what we're here for, no?)  going for the shorter more fingery and less steep sports climbs. Just a suggestion, eh? I don't have quantitative data, since many climbers don't use 8a.nu or local equivalents, it's more anecdotal. AND it would apply not just at the highest grade levels.

Happy new year BTW, Peter

[Houdini]

Yawnsville, Boredom County, United States of Meh

[Ru]

You seem to be asking one question and answering another. I'm not sure how the existence of your 8c+ climbing mate from Milan and the assertion that the 8a wall climbs in Sardinia are harder than the steep ones say anything about the reasons why British climbing standards seem lower than elsewhere. 

[Jaspersharpe]

Once again I think this will help explain the matter more clearly:

[saltbeef]

You seem to be asking one question and answering another. I'm not sure how the existence of your 8c+ climbing mate from Milan and the assertion that the 8a wall climbs in Sardinia are harder than the steep ones say anything about the reasons why British climbing standards seem lower than elsewhere.

[Doylo]

thats enough silly threads for now

[mrjonathanr]

Once again I think this will help explain the matter more clearly:

I've licked a lemon or two: maybe just not enough?