[adam p]

As a longtime user of the Westway, and someone who trains at the new bouldering wall two to three times a week, I visited on Sunday following a few weeks away with work and injury.

I had been warned about the matting before I went back and can report from personal experience that it is very hard to fall on and, because of the height of the wall, a plus in my opinion, is scary. I do not like to wonder what they were like before they 'softened up' as John Gibbons said.

The previous system of having three or four large matts, on top of the base layer, which could be positioned underneath a problem or set of problems was not perfect - however I was only aware of one accident there in the past year or so. This does not of course mean that there were not many more but there is a hardcore of regular boulderers who could be relied up on to spread the word about any incident and I was unaware.

Equally, the previous approach allowed people to do horizontal moves at height (such as a high heel hook or rising traverse, which both feature often in the wall's usually good set of problems) with a degree of confidence and security about a fall (I know as I tested it many times) which the new system lacks. Falling off above the new matting could leave someone badly winded (not serious but seriously off-putting) and even whiplashed.

I don't know what the alternative is and will leave it to more expert opinion. However one observation is that there was not any form of consultation with the many regular users of the wall - I say this as someone who knows several of the staff and is aware of concerns before the matting was laid. The length of climbing pedigree or years of experience is not always, or automatically, a substitute for a well-researched procurement policy or consultation.

Quite why an increase in casual climbers is an endorsement of the matting is beyond me - surely they are the least likely to know about the matting and only find out afterwards.

Finally, if people are unwilling to climb high and push themselves because of the matting (which is something I felt yesterday) then it might well cause a decrease in injuries, but this is like taking the barriers off the side of a mountain road to slow drivers. It might well work but is the best solution to neuter people rather than allow them to climb at their, and the wall's potential, safely. It is perverse logic.

Regarding the price rises, I was very surprised at the increase in April after only learning about it when I went to renew my pass.

While still believing the WW offers good value for the area (and being fortunate enough to still have a job) I had several conversations with senior staff about the manner in which it was introduced.

The rise might well have been advertised, but nowhere near the climbing wall - the entrance door would have been logical but there was nothing to see.

This was compounded then by the bouldering wall being closed for 3 or 4 days to be reset then again for the Easter break.

At a time when inflation is close to zero and falling (depending on measurement), interest rates are at historic lows, the country is in recession, jobs are going left, right and centre, and those fortunate to have a job have salaries frozen, the notion of 17.5% increase in WW prices left a very nasty taste in the mouth.

I did actually raise this with the management (and have the emails apologising for lack of commmunications about the rise) should John Gibbons wish to pursue this with me. By all means PM me.

There is nascent talk of a 'school' type collective-run training facility being organised. If this happens, what number of casual climbers will be required to make up the shortfall in regular income I wonder....

[adam p]

Oh dear, just read back above....

Apologies for lengthy rant......

[north_country_boy]

6. Whether there should be an edge or a wedge. (Both alternatives present different risks. With an edge the question is how far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, but mitigate injury due to a fall from height. With a wedge the question is whether a forward angle would project a falling climber into the wall. Current advice is that a flat surface is preferable.)

This is quite frankly ridiculous......

If the matting had a rising angle/wedge which came back from the base of the wall to possibly 1-2 feet beyond the current edge of the matting it would mitigate any potential injuries and the matting would deal with the original issues. The idea that a climber may be 'projected' into the wall is highly unlikely. Landing astride the edge is a fair more likely incident which will no doubt occur.....

Good luck, hopefully no one does come a cropper.

[Dr T]

6. Whether there should be an edge or a wedge. (Both alternatives present different risks. With an edge the question is how far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, but mitigate injury due to a fall from height. With a wedge the question is whether a forward angle would project a falling climber into the wall. Current advice is that a flat surface is preferable.)

the wedge at craggy Sutton works a treat no trapoline face plant effect....
I wouldn't be climbing above the new WW mat...

right thats my tuppence worth....

[Paul B]

To refer back to one of the points above, there is ongoing risk assessment at the Westway - we are aware of peoples' concerns, and are monitoring the situation very closely. If there is a need to take further action, action will be taken!

So you're waiting for someone to land over this edge and hurt themselves before anything will be done about it? In this world, with a thread like this already raising the issue does this not seem like a game of legal Russian roulette?

[Sloper]

Speaking as a climbing lawyer and without any reference to any post held and without viewing the facility and risk management decision trees etc I'd say this approach and is lunacy.

[Nizza]

The results of installation of the new matting are:
1. Two customers raised verbal concerns about the edge of the new matting with the management team

This is completely untrue, I was part of a group of 5 boulderers who raised our concerns with the management.  I know of at least 3 others who have done the same.

[GCW]

Speaking as a climbing lawyer and without any reference to any post held and without viewing the facility and risk management decision trees etc I'd say this approach and is lunacy.

Plus, Mr Gibbons (assuming he is who he claims) has admitted that West Way Management are aware that there is a potential safety issue with these mats.  I can't see that going down well if there is an incident because of these mats.

we are aware of peoples' concerns

[Jaspersharpe]

London's shit.

[lagerstarfish]

Speaking as a climbing accountant and without any reference to any post held and without viewing the facility and risk management decision trees etc I'd say London's shit.

[Nizza]

2. The quote given in the initial post is taken out of context and is part of a much longer conversation with one of the management team

I was present when this was said and it was said in response to a member of our group saying that the matting is dangerous and somebody could get seriously hurt.  It is taken from my blog, to say that it is out of context is completely untrue.

4. All health and safety decisions in the climbing centre are made by competent, trained, experienced staff, who have many years climbing experience and many years of working in, and running, climbing centres.

A number of the people who have raised their concerns with the Westway have many years both climbing and coaching at an international level and their opinions are being completely dismissed.  I don't want to be drawn into my opinion of the people who work at the wall, but all I would say is that most of them do not use the bouldering facilities.  If John thinks it's safe then he should try falling on to the step on his back.  I have already pointed out to the management that I was left with a dislocated veterbrae in my neck after falling onto my back in the peak.  I landed on a step caused by one bouldering mat being on top of others.  This was a step of about 5 inches, I'm sure a step of a foot would do a lot more damage.  I was told that I was lucky to have avoided paralysis and spent 10 hours locked down in hospital and a number of weeks in a neck brace, I don't want somebody else to have the same or worse happen to them.  Bouldering indoors should be a safe activity and anybody can see that falling on to a step is not a good idea.  Surely management with as much experience as is claimed above would spot this straight away.       

[Sloper]

Just a quick pedant point, bouldering indoors is not meant to be a safe activity for it cannot be made safe, <participation statement. however it risks should be managed reasonably and I'm amazed if anyone would consider the approach taken meets with accepted definitions of 'reasonably  managed' in this context.

The CEN standard for matting at a bouldering wall states:

'Safety mats shall allow a climber to land safely. The thickness and density of the safety mat will vary with the height and style of the fall. The safety mat supplier/ installer shall endeavour to supply a mat as reasonably safe as possible.'

Does anybody else spot where the mats might not be compliant?

[north_country_boy]

The CEN standard for matting at a bouldering wall states:

'Safety mats shall allow a climber to land safely. The thickness and density of the safety mat will vary with the height and style of the fall. The safety mat supplier/ installer shall endeavour to supply a mat as reasonably safe as possible.'

This is the point I made earlier, the manufacturer/supplier is in a position of responsibility as they have the knowledge and expertise, or so you would hope.............

[Nizza]

Well they've commented on here in this past, maybe they can answer that question.

[matthew]

Could the management not install matting in the current gap so that it's all the same level? It looks pretty high so losing a foot off the bottom won't make much difference.

It does look a bit of a ankle/back breaker.

[Sloper]

I do think that the CEN standards are poorly draughted, but that's a different issue.  As to the manufacturer / installer they might not be aware of the provisions of the CEN or be working to the client brief which is specific rather than purpose based; however the resposibility rests primarily with the facilities management.

[Rabies]

The whole situation with this matting is ridiculous to be honest.  How can anyone justify falling a few metres onto an uneven surface at a climbing wall.  It can be bad enough falling on to the edge of a bouldering mat as most people know.  It is easy to roll an ankle resulting in a sprain or even a break.  The fact that the top matting is a foot above the matting below means you could break a leg let alone your ankle.  A friend of mine recently fell of the top of a wall at a well known bouldering wall in Yorkshire.  The move was such that he was totally committed and had to pop for it.  He didn't make it and landed awkwardly and broke his fifth metatarsal.  The matting he fell on was flat and is some of the most expensive matting you can buy (ie:gymnastic matting).  Bearing in mind that this is a best case scenario he still managed to break something.  I know accidents happen, but the current system is asking for trouble.

Having used the Westway facility last summer I think it is a great wall, but it seems a shame to ruin it with this silly matting.  To me there seems only two options:

1) Get rid of all the matting and replace with an elevated floor and install new matting that fits flush to the base of the climbing wall.  You may lose half a metre at the base including the small kickboard of course.
2) Get rid of the top matting and replace with something that tapers better to the wall.  The picture shows the matting at the far end is less likely to injure someone but the overlap nearest the camera is level with the top of the wall!

Come on, you can't just leave it like it is and wait to see what happens!

[Houdini]

London's shit.

W...   Look man, I don't do crass negroisms.   

[Johnny Brown]

That's even worse than the matting at Plas-y-Brenin

If the matting had a rising angle/wedge which came back from the base of the wall to possibly 1-2 feet beyond the current edge of the matting it would mitigate any potential injuries and the matting would deal with the original issues.

It is a while since I've been ( and I only climbed there the once), but The Brenin matting has a wedge rising from the foot of the wall to allow deeper matting without loosing wall height. In some twenty years of climbing outside I've never needing hospitalising due to climbing injury. These sloping Brenin pads did for my ankle in about twenty minutes and it was off to Ysbyty Gwynedd. Fucking Lethal.

[Nizza]

I'm pleased to say that as of this evening the Westway are changing their matting.  They are asking customers to comment on the options they have open to them to help them choose the best one.  If you are climb at the Westway please comment on their designs. 

[GraemeA]

The Foundry have had tapered mats for eons, not quite since they opened but for most of their time open, and, to the best of my knowledge, have had very few accidents that could be blamed on the mats. The Wave is quite steep though so you tended to hit the taper with your arse and only from low down

The Brenin has tapered mats on all angles including slabs so you could hit the taper from high up falling from a slab. Which was not the best idea.

[Johnny Brown]

Plus The Brenin taper is much steeper than the Foundry's. Its making me wince now remembering...

[Somebody's Fool]

Plus The Brenin taper is much steeper than the Foundry's.

You been in the foundry then? prove it! I smell a rat, when? who saw you? and were you with scott?

[north_country_boy]

Plus The Brenin taper is much steeper than the Foundry's.

You been in the foundry then? prove it! I smell a rat, when? who saw you? and were you with scott?

Scott's appearances at the foundry are like rocking horse shit, just like his witnesses for hard ascents.....

[GraemeA]

Anticipating such questions I took the precaution of getting a professional film crew to follow me around, the results can be seen on Hard Plastic