[monkey boy]

A friend asked me to make people aware of this and to see what people think. The guys who train there thought it was pretty dangerous and spoke to the manager and this is what was said-

"well we'll see what happens, but we have no plans to change it".

This attitude stinks and reflects the fact that the wall is not run by climbers and the majority of people who work there don't climb. I can't believe this passes health and safety!

The mats are made by Holdz and are pretty tough although fine if you fall onto them as a flat surface, having them with a step in is like climbing over a set of stairs. On the 15 degree wall which you can't see in this picture you are over the step the whole way to the top and over the 20 degree wall you are over it until halfway up. This could do a lot of damage to someones ankles or if they landed on their neck or back they could end up with severe injuries.

[galpinos]

I can't see a picture. Is it a dodgy link?

[monkey boy]

Sorted!

[dave]

looks like a bag of shit. what happens if you meet the wolfman or hunter coming the other way?

[galpinos]

Doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

What's wrong with just the mat underneath? Too thin?

(Looks like a great board/wall though)

[Plattsy]

Looks like it's been just layed on top to provide extra padding for high falls. But has created a significant risk area where some unlucky climber is gonna come a proper cropper.

Smacks of a cheap option to me.

 

[i.munro]

This seems nuts to me. Topping out at that wall was scary & I wouldn't be suprised if they've had a few accidents but surely the solution is to set problems that finish before the top.

[Paul B]

Concerns in writing might help. I'm pretty sure this is going to cause someone a nasty and if they're aware of that fact 

[SA Chris]

Concerns in writing might help. I'm pretty sure this is going to cause someone a nasty and if they're aware of that fact 

Given your track record i would stay away.

[erm]

Up until this point they were using crash mats (big blue numbers you get in school PE leasons) that were moved about under people so that the landing was softer.

Frankly this is a better solution compared to the other method, at least here there is only one edge rather than four per mat (which can be moved about by folk whilst you are climbing over them) to roll ankles on.

Having said that the running of the wall is rubbish and a number of the staff seem borderline incompetent/outright dangerous.

[Percy B]

That solution to their matting problem is an accident waiting to happen - mental. The old solution of sliding big blue mats was also dangerous (in my opinion, although what do i know...) Both solutions are trying to solve the fundamental problem that the original matting, whilst very expensive and top of the range and bespoke, etc, etc. was just too bloody hard for a wall that height, and the idea that it will 'soften up when it beds in' never came qround because foam of that high quality just doesn't soften up with use. Bouldering wall matting is one of those things when sometimes the most expensive foams isn't necessarily the best thing for the job, but you just can't tell people. The most expensive is seen as the best, so they spend stupid money on something that ain't as good.
That looks like someone has put an expensive new mat on another very expensive mat to make a really bad matter worse. I would imagine that regular users will be voting with their feet (providing they are still able to walk).

Bouldering in Lahndahn looks well dangerous. I'm sticking to my northern walls, like the big northern softy I am.

[Will Hunt]

That's even worse than the matting at Plas-y-Brenin. You wonder how they get away with this.

[north_country_boy]

A couple of things strike me as odd with this...... 

 - Regardless of why the old matting was bad, you would expect that if the wall are going to the trouble of replacing/adding to the existing matting then they obviously are concerned for the safety of their customers and so improving on what it already there is of paramount importance.

- Bouldering wall matting should be designed, manufactured and fitted for the specific wall it is intended for, and so the initial inspection of the wall should have highlighted the existing issues and any potential issues to arise from the fitting of the new matting. Their are relatively few companies offering this service of bespoke matting, but the ones who do have lots of experience. So how did this matting every get manufactured and fitted when it is blatently inappropriate for the job?

- Even someone from a non-climbing background could see its unsafe? and these people are apparently the 'professionals'?!?

- Did the big cheeses at the Westway demand this type of solution to the original matting problem? Even if they did surely to a certain degree its the responsibility of the expert professionals to advise them as to the safest and most practical solution? 

[erm]

Unfortunatley for a lot of us voting with our feet isn't viable. The westway is the only decent wall on the west side of london, so to use another wall is increase your costs or time in tranist massively. 

Frankly the westway know this which is probable why they hicked the adult & concessions monthly pass prices by 18% & 23% respectivley (both £7 increases), unless you want to pay direct debit.

[GCW]

All it needs is a few people to put it in writing, then a visitor to have an accident (something like a back injury is impossible to refute, esp if you go to A+E).  A whiff of legal action may make them sit up and take note.

Are they affiliated to the BMC or anyone?

[Will Hunt]

Good point, G. Hadn't thought of the BMC. Even if it's not affiliated the BMC are responsible for climbers in the UK and are sufficiently big that they should be able to throw some weight behind the punters using the wall. Perhaps this should be brought to their attention.

[dave]

the BMC are responsible for climbers in the UK

to be pedantic, they represent climbers in the UK, they're not responsible for them.

[Will Hunt]

Well corrected.

[LondonIrish]

Interesting story, the old system of mats was producing an average of one injury per week. I think it's pretty brave of the guys there to have an expensive new mat put in whilst there's a recession on, a lot of other centres would have just said 'f*** it, it's your own risk'.

[Paul B]

thats a bit of a daft reaction, we'll replace one problem with another problem. Genius. It doesn't take a lot to design a mat well.

[Jaspersharpe]

the old system of mats was producing an average of one injury per week.

Was that not considered sufficient?

[erm]

I think it's pretty brave of the guys there to have an expensive new mat put in whilst there's a recession on

You have very odd idea of what "brave" is, particularly given that the new matting arrived just after a signinficant price increase.

Oh and as mentioned replacing a shit solution with another expensive shit system is not an improvment to impressed by.

[lagerstarfish]

the old system of mats was producing an average of one injury per week.

Was that not considered sufficient?

He didn't think it too many

[John W Gibbons]

I have read with interest the various posts regarding the new bouldering mat at the Westway over the past few days.

As the Sports Director in charge of all sporting activity at the Westway Sports Centre, I thought the time had come to clearly state the Westway's position with regards to the new matting, and to clear up some of the misleading statements made about the Westway and it's staff.

The new wall at the Westway is very high for a bouldering wall. Although it has been built within EU regulations for a bouldering wall, there is still a significant drop to the matting below. The foam in the original mat has softened up with use, as expected, however customers have still been reluctant to drop the full height of the wall upon completing a problem.

This resulted in a number of gym mats being provided for customers to position under their fall zone - just as we all do when bouldering outside.

Although this met the customers need of reducing the drop distance to the mat, the result was that we found a sharp increase in the number of recorded accidents, due to climbers landing badly on the edges of the smaller mats.

To address this problem we have installed another large permanent mat, further back from the edge of the original mat, to continue to allow for sit start problems. This new mat does not have the same graphite based foam, and will soften up even quicker than the original.

The results of installation of the new matting are:
1. Two customers raised verbal concerns about the edge of the new matting with the management team
2. There have been no recorded incidents or accidents since installation
3. The number of casual climbers has risen since installation

Before the new mat was ordered the following points were considered:
1. Current number of accidents, and their causes.
2. Design of the new mat
3. How far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, and to avoid trailing legs on the mat during competitions
4. The density of the foam
5. Thickness of the foam
6. Whether there should be an edge or a wedge. (Both alternatives present different risks. With an edge the question is how far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, but mitigate injury due to a fall from height. With a wedge the question is whether a forward angle would project a falling climber into the wall. Current advice is that a flat surface is preferable.)
7. The surface finish of the cover
8. Raising the existing mat using some kind of platform or flooring underneath, (this presented its own set of problems).
9. Various manufacturers
10. Foam samples were gathered and tested

For the sake of accuracy, the following points should be made:
1. The 3 senior managers of the Westway Climbing Centre have 45 years of climbing experience between them
2. The quote given in the initial post is taken out of context and is part of a much longer conversation with one of the management team
3. The Westway have increased the monthly pass price by £7, however it is still £12 cheaper than its nearest big competitor. In addition, the Westway considered the effects the increase would have on customers, and has frozen the price for direct debit customers. A full explanation of the rationale behind the price increases, and information on how the Westway is funded, was provided for our customers around the centre, and will shortly be available on the Website.
4. All health and safety decisions in the climbing centre are made by competent, trained, experienced staff, who have many years climbing experience and many years of working in, and running, climbing centres.
5. The Westway is an Associate Member of the BMC. The Westway is a Full Member of the ABC.
6. The Westway conducts ongoing risk assessments, and evaluates the causes of all accidents and incidents.

There are further quotes from users of this site, as follows:
"It looks like someone has put an expensive new mat on another very expensive mat to make a really bad matter worse."
"Expensive matting isn't necessarily the best thing for the job, but you just can't tell people."
In reply to these comments I would simply refer you to points 2 and 3 of the results of the installation mentioned above. The solution proposed and implemented has solved the previous problem, and customer have voted with their feet and more of them have come to the Westway. The quote, "...but you just can't tell people.", gives the impression that the poster knew about the installation, and advised the Westway against it, but that the Westway continued regardless. The facts are that the poster has not been in contact with the Westway at all about this matter.

To refer back to one of the points above, there is ongoing risk assessment at the Westway - we are aware of peoples' concerns, and are monitoring the situation very closely. If there is a need to take further action, action will be taken! We have been advised by the manufacturer that the matting will soften, as is already proving the case.

Thank you for your time.

John Gibbons
Sports and Finance Director, Westway Sports Centre

[clm]