[monkey boy]

A friend asked me to make people aware of this and to see what people think. The guys who train there thought it was pretty dangerous and spoke to the manager and this is what was said-

"well we'll see what happens, but we have no plans to change it".

This attitude stinks and reflects the fact that the wall is not run by climbers and the majority of people who work there don't climb. I can't believe this passes health and safety!

The mats are made by Holdz and are pretty tough although fine if you fall onto them as a flat surface, having them with a step in is like climbing over a set of stairs. On the 15 degree wall which you can't see in this picture you are over the step the whole way to the top and over the 20 degree wall you are over it until halfway up. This could do a lot of damage to someones ankles or if they landed on their neck or back they could end up with severe injuries.

[galpinos]

I can't see a picture. Is it a dodgy link?

[monkey boy]

Sorted!

[dave]

looks like a bag of shit. what happens if you meet the wolfman or hunter coming the other way?

[galpinos]

Doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

What's wrong with just the mat underneath? Too thin?

(Looks like a great board/wall though)

[Plattsy]

Looks like it's been just layed on top to provide extra padding for high falls. But has created a significant risk area where some unlucky climber is gonna come a proper cropper.

Smacks of a cheap option to me.

 

[i.munro]

This seems nuts to me. Topping out at that wall was scary & I wouldn't be suprised if they've had a few accidents but surely the solution is to set problems that finish before the top.

[Paul B]

Concerns in writing might help. I'm pretty sure this is going to cause someone a nasty and if they're aware of that fact 

[SA Chris]

Concerns in writing might help. I'm pretty sure this is going to cause someone a nasty and if they're aware of that fact 

Given your track record i would stay away.

[erm]

Up until this point they were using crash mats (big blue numbers you get in school PE leasons) that were moved about under people so that the landing was softer.

Frankly this is a better solution compared to the other method, at least here there is only one edge rather than four per mat (which can be moved about by folk whilst you are climbing over them) to roll ankles on.

Having said that the running of the wall is rubbish and a number of the staff seem borderline incompetent/outright dangerous.

[Percy B]

That solution to their matting problem is an accident waiting to happen - mental. The old solution of sliding big blue mats was also dangerous (in my opinion, although what do i know...) Both solutions are trying to solve the fundamental problem that the original matting, whilst very expensive and top of the range and bespoke, etc, etc. was just too bloody hard for a wall that height, and the idea that it will 'soften up when it beds in' never came qround because foam of that high quality just doesn't soften up with use. Bouldering wall matting is one of those things when sometimes the most expensive foams isn't necessarily the best thing for the job, but you just can't tell people. The most expensive is seen as the best, so they spend stupid money on something that ain't as good.
That looks like someone has put an expensive new mat on another very expensive mat to make a really bad matter worse. I would imagine that regular users will be voting with their feet (providing they are still able to walk).

Bouldering in Lahndahn looks well dangerous. I'm sticking to my northern walls, like the big northern softy I am.

[Will Hunt]

That's even worse than the matting at Plas-y-Brenin. You wonder how they get away with this.

[north_country_boy]

A couple of things strike me as odd with this...... 

 - Regardless of why the old matting was bad, you would expect that if the wall are going to the trouble of replacing/adding to the existing matting then they obviously are concerned for the safety of their customers and so improving on what it already there is of paramount importance.

- Bouldering wall matting should be designed, manufactured and fitted for the specific wall it is intended for, and so the initial inspection of the wall should have highlighted the existing issues and any potential issues to arise from the fitting of the new matting. Their are relatively few companies offering this service of bespoke matting, but the ones who do have lots of experience. So how did this matting every get manufactured and fitted when it is blatently inappropriate for the job?

- Even someone from a non-climbing background could see its unsafe? and these people are apparently the 'professionals'?!?

- Did the big cheeses at the Westway demand this type of solution to the original matting problem? Even if they did surely to a certain degree its the responsibility of the expert professionals to advise them as to the safest and most practical solution? 

[erm]

Unfortunatley for a lot of us voting with our feet isn't viable. The westway is the only decent wall on the west side of london, so to use another wall is increase your costs or time in tranist massively. 

Frankly the westway know this which is probable why they hicked the adult & concessions monthly pass prices by 18% & 23% respectivley (both £7 increases), unless you want to pay direct debit.

[GCW]

All it needs is a few people to put it in writing, then a visitor to have an accident (something like a back injury is impossible to refute, esp if you go to A+E).  A whiff of legal action may make them sit up and take note.

Are they affiliated to the BMC or anyone?

[Will Hunt]

Good point, G. Hadn't thought of the BMC. Even if it's not affiliated the BMC are responsible for climbers in the UK and are sufficiently big that they should be able to throw some weight behind the punters using the wall. Perhaps this should be brought to their attention.

[dave]

the BMC are responsible for climbers in the UK

to be pedantic, they represent climbers in the UK, they're not responsible for them.

[Will Hunt]

Well corrected.

[LondonIrish]

Interesting story, the old system of mats was producing an average of one injury per week. I think it's pretty brave of the guys there to have an expensive new mat put in whilst there's a recession on, a lot of other centres would have just said 'f*** it, it's your own risk'.

[Paul B]

thats a bit of a daft reaction, we'll replace one problem with another problem. Genius. It doesn't take a lot to design a mat well.

[Jaspersharpe]

the old system of mats was producing an average of one injury per week.

Was that not considered sufficient?

[erm]

I think it's pretty brave of the guys there to have an expensive new mat put in whilst there's a recession on

You have very odd idea of what "brave" is, particularly given that the new matting arrived just after a signinficant price increase.

Oh and as mentioned replacing a shit solution with another expensive shit system is not an improvment to impressed by.

[lagerstarfish]

the old system of mats was producing an average of one injury per week.

Was that not considered sufficient?

He didn't think it too many

[John W Gibbons]

I have read with interest the various posts regarding the new bouldering mat at the Westway over the past few days.

As the Sports Director in charge of all sporting activity at the Westway Sports Centre, I thought the time had come to clearly state the Westway's position with regards to the new matting, and to clear up some of the misleading statements made about the Westway and it's staff.

The new wall at the Westway is very high for a bouldering wall. Although it has been built within EU regulations for a bouldering wall, there is still a significant drop to the matting below. The foam in the original mat has softened up with use, as expected, however customers have still been reluctant to drop the full height of the wall upon completing a problem.

This resulted in a number of gym mats being provided for customers to position under their fall zone - just as we all do when bouldering outside.

Although this met the customers need of reducing the drop distance to the mat, the result was that we found a sharp increase in the number of recorded accidents, due to climbers landing badly on the edges of the smaller mats.

To address this problem we have installed another large permanent mat, further back from the edge of the original mat, to continue to allow for sit start problems. This new mat does not have the same graphite based foam, and will soften up even quicker than the original.

The results of installation of the new matting are:
1. Two customers raised verbal concerns about the edge of the new matting with the management team
2. There have been no recorded incidents or accidents since installation
3. The number of casual climbers has risen since installation

Before the new mat was ordered the following points were considered:
1. Current number of accidents, and their causes.
2. Design of the new mat
3. How far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, and to avoid trailing legs on the mat during competitions
4. The density of the foam
5. Thickness of the foam
6. Whether there should be an edge or a wedge. (Both alternatives present different risks. With an edge the question is how far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, but mitigate injury due to a fall from height. With a wedge the question is whether a forward angle would project a falling climber into the wall. Current advice is that a flat surface is preferable.)
7. The surface finish of the cover
8. Raising the existing mat using some kind of platform or flooring underneath, (this presented its own set of problems).
9. Various manufacturers
10. Foam samples were gathered and tested

For the sake of accuracy, the following points should be made:
1. The 3 senior managers of the Westway Climbing Centre have 45 years of climbing experience between them
2. The quote given in the initial post is taken out of context and is part of a much longer conversation with one of the management team
3. The Westway have increased the monthly pass price by £7, however it is still £12 cheaper than its nearest big competitor. In addition, the Westway considered the effects the increase would have on customers, and has frozen the price for direct debit customers. A full explanation of the rationale behind the price increases, and information on how the Westway is funded, was provided for our customers around the centre, and will shortly be available on the Website.
4. All health and safety decisions in the climbing centre are made by competent, trained, experienced staff, who have many years climbing experience and many years of working in, and running, climbing centres.
5. The Westway is an Associate Member of the BMC. The Westway is a Full Member of the ABC.
6. The Westway conducts ongoing risk assessments, and evaluates the causes of all accidents and incidents.

There are further quotes from users of this site, as follows:
"It looks like someone has put an expensive new mat on another very expensive mat to make a really bad matter worse."
"Expensive matting isn't necessarily the best thing for the job, but you just can't tell people."
In reply to these comments I would simply refer you to points 2 and 3 of the results of the installation mentioned above. The solution proposed and implemented has solved the previous problem, and customer have voted with their feet and more of them have come to the Westway. The quote, "...but you just can't tell people.", gives the impression that the poster knew about the installation, and advised the Westway against it, but that the Westway continued regardless. The facts are that the poster has not been in contact with the Westway at all about this matter.

To refer back to one of the points above, there is ongoing risk assessment at the Westway - we are aware of peoples' concerns, and are monitoring the situation very closely. If there is a need to take further action, action will be taken! We have been advised by the manufacturer that the matting will soften, as is already proving the case.

Thank you for your time.

John Gibbons
Sports and Finance Director, Westway Sports Centre

[clm]

[adam p]

As a longtime user of the Westway, and someone who trains at the new bouldering wall two to three times a week, I visited on Sunday following a few weeks away with work and injury.

I had been warned about the matting before I went back and can report from personal experience that it is very hard to fall on and, because of the height of the wall, a plus in my opinion, is scary. I do not like to wonder what they were like before they 'softened up' as John Gibbons said.

The previous system of having three or four large matts, on top of the base layer, which could be positioned underneath a problem or set of problems was not perfect - however I was only aware of one accident there in the past year or so. This does not of course mean that there were not many more but there is a hardcore of regular boulderers who could be relied up on to spread the word about any incident and I was unaware.

Equally, the previous approach allowed people to do horizontal moves at height (such as a high heel hook or rising traverse, which both feature often in the wall's usually good set of problems) with a degree of confidence and security about a fall (I know as I tested it many times) which the new system lacks. Falling off above the new matting could leave someone badly winded (not serious but seriously off-putting) and even whiplashed.

I don't know what the alternative is and will leave it to more expert opinion. However one observation is that there was not any form of consultation with the many regular users of the wall - I say this as someone who knows several of the staff and is aware of concerns before the matting was laid. The length of climbing pedigree or years of experience is not always, or automatically, a substitute for a well-researched procurement policy or consultation.

Quite why an increase in casual climbers is an endorsement of the matting is beyond me - surely they are the least likely to know about the matting and only find out afterwards.

Finally, if people are unwilling to climb high and push themselves because of the matting (which is something I felt yesterday) then it might well cause a decrease in injuries, but this is like taking the barriers off the side of a mountain road to slow drivers. It might well work but is the best solution to neuter people rather than allow them to climb at their, and the wall's potential, safely. It is perverse logic.

Regarding the price rises, I was very surprised at the increase in April after only learning about it when I went to renew my pass.

While still believing the WW offers good value for the area (and being fortunate enough to still have a job) I had several conversations with senior staff about the manner in which it was introduced.

The rise might well have been advertised, but nowhere near the climbing wall - the entrance door would have been logical but there was nothing to see.

This was compounded then by the bouldering wall being closed for 3 or 4 days to be reset then again for the Easter break.

At a time when inflation is close to zero and falling (depending on measurement), interest rates are at historic lows, the country is in recession, jobs are going left, right and centre, and those fortunate to have a job have salaries frozen, the notion of 17.5% increase in WW prices left a very nasty taste in the mouth.

I did actually raise this with the management (and have the emails apologising for lack of commmunications about the rise) should John Gibbons wish to pursue this with me. By all means PM me.

There is nascent talk of a 'school' type collective-run training facility being organised. If this happens, what number of casual climbers will be required to make up the shortfall in regular income I wonder....

[adam p]

Oh dear, just read back above....

Apologies for lengthy rant......

[north_country_boy]

6. Whether there should be an edge or a wedge. (Both alternatives present different risks. With an edge the question is how far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, but mitigate injury due to a fall from height. With a wedge the question is whether a forward angle would project a falling climber into the wall. Current advice is that a flat surface is preferable.)

This is quite frankly ridiculous......

If the matting had a rising angle/wedge which came back from the base of the wall to possibly 1-2 feet beyond the current edge of the matting it would mitigate any potential injuries and the matting would deal with the original issues. The idea that a climber may be 'projected' into the wall is highly unlikely. Landing astride the edge is a fair more likely incident which will no doubt occur.....

Good luck, hopefully no one does come a cropper.

[Dr T]

6. Whether there should be an edge or a wedge. (Both alternatives present different risks. With an edge the question is how far back the edge should be to allow for sit starts, but mitigate injury due to a fall from height. With a wedge the question is whether a forward angle would project a falling climber into the wall. Current advice is that a flat surface is preferable.)

the wedge at craggy Sutton works a treat no trapoline face plant effect....
I wouldn't be climbing above the new WW mat...

right thats my tuppence worth....

[Paul B]

To refer back to one of the points above, there is ongoing risk assessment at the Westway - we are aware of peoples' concerns, and are monitoring the situation very closely. If there is a need to take further action, action will be taken!

So you're waiting for someone to land over this edge and hurt themselves before anything will be done about it? In this world, with a thread like this already raising the issue does this not seem like a game of legal Russian roulette?

[Sloper]

Speaking as a climbing lawyer and without any reference to any post held and without viewing the facility and risk management decision trees etc I'd say this approach and is lunacy.

[Nizza]

The results of installation of the new matting are:
1. Two customers raised verbal concerns about the edge of the new matting with the management team

This is completely untrue, I was part of a group of 5 boulderers who raised our concerns with the management.  I know of at least 3 others who have done the same.

[GCW]

Speaking as a climbing lawyer and without any reference to any post held and without viewing the facility and risk management decision trees etc I'd say this approach and is lunacy.

Plus, Mr Gibbons (assuming he is who he claims) has admitted that West Way Management are aware that there is a potential safety issue with these mats.  I can't see that going down well if there is an incident because of these mats.

we are aware of peoples' concerns

[Jaspersharpe]

London's shit.

[lagerstarfish]

Speaking as a climbing accountant and without any reference to any post held and without viewing the facility and risk management decision trees etc I'd say London's shit.

[Nizza]

2. The quote given in the initial post is taken out of context and is part of a much longer conversation with one of the management team

I was present when this was said and it was said in response to a member of our group saying that the matting is dangerous and somebody could get seriously hurt.  It is taken from my blog, to say that it is out of context is completely untrue.

4. All health and safety decisions in the climbing centre are made by competent, trained, experienced staff, who have many years climbing experience and many years of working in, and running, climbing centres.

A number of the people who have raised their concerns with the Westway have many years both climbing and coaching at an international level and their opinions are being completely dismissed.  I don't want to be drawn into my opinion of the people who work at the wall, but all I would say is that most of them do not use the bouldering facilities.  If John thinks it's safe then he should try falling on to the step on his back.  I have already pointed out to the management that I was left with a dislocated veterbrae in my neck after falling onto my back in the peak.  I landed on a step caused by one bouldering mat being on top of others.  This was a step of about 5 inches, I'm sure a step of a foot would do a lot more damage.  I was told that I was lucky to have avoided paralysis and spent 10 hours locked down in hospital and a number of weeks in a neck brace, I don't want somebody else to have the same or worse happen to them.  Bouldering indoors should be a safe activity and anybody can see that falling on to a step is not a good idea.  Surely management with as much experience as is claimed above would spot this straight away.       

[Sloper]

Just a quick pedant point, bouldering indoors is not meant to be a safe activity for it cannot be made safe, <participation statement. however it risks should be managed reasonably and I'm amazed if anyone would consider the approach taken meets with accepted definitions of 'reasonably  managed' in this context.

The CEN standard for matting at a bouldering wall states:

'Safety mats shall allow a climber to land safely. The thickness and density of the safety mat will vary with the height and style of the fall. The safety mat supplier/ installer shall endeavour to supply a mat as reasonably safe as possible.'

Does anybody else spot where the mats might not be compliant?

[north_country_boy]

The CEN standard for matting at a bouldering wall states:

'Safety mats shall allow a climber to land safely. The thickness and density of the safety mat will vary with the height and style of the fall. The safety mat supplier/ installer shall endeavour to supply a mat as reasonably safe as possible.'

This is the point I made earlier, the manufacturer/supplier is in a position of responsibility as they have the knowledge and expertise, or so you would hope.............

[Nizza]

Well they've commented on here in this past, maybe they can answer that question.

[matthew]

Could the management not install matting in the current gap so that it's all the same level? It looks pretty high so losing a foot off the bottom won't make much difference.

It does look a bit of a ankle/back breaker.

[Sloper]

I do think that the CEN standards are poorly draughted, but that's a different issue.  As to the manufacturer / installer they might not be aware of the provisions of the CEN or be working to the client brief which is specific rather than purpose based; however the resposibility rests primarily with the facilities management.

[Rabies]

The whole situation with this matting is ridiculous to be honest.  How can anyone justify falling a few metres onto an uneven surface at a climbing wall.  It can be bad enough falling on to the edge of a bouldering mat as most people know.  It is easy to roll an ankle resulting in a sprain or even a break.  The fact that the top matting is a foot above the matting below means you could break a leg let alone your ankle.  A friend of mine recently fell of the top of a wall at a well known bouldering wall in Yorkshire.  The move was such that he was totally committed and had to pop for it.  He didn't make it and landed awkwardly and broke his fifth metatarsal.  The matting he fell on was flat and is some of the most expensive matting you can buy (ie:gymnastic matting).  Bearing in mind that this is a best case scenario he still managed to break something.  I know accidents happen, but the current system is asking for trouble.

Having used the Westway facility last summer I think it is a great wall, but it seems a shame to ruin it with this silly matting.  To me there seems only two options:

1) Get rid of all the matting and replace with an elevated floor and install new matting that fits flush to the base of the climbing wall.  You may lose half a metre at the base including the small kickboard of course.
2) Get rid of the top matting and replace with something that tapers better to the wall.  The picture shows the matting at the far end is less likely to injure someone but the overlap nearest the camera is level with the top of the wall!

Come on, you can't just leave it like it is and wait to see what happens!

[Houdini]

London's shit.

W...   Look man, I don't do crass negroisms.   

[Johnny Brown]

That's even worse than the matting at Plas-y-Brenin

If the matting had a rising angle/wedge which came back from the base of the wall to possibly 1-2 feet beyond the current edge of the matting it would mitigate any potential injuries and the matting would deal with the original issues.

It is a while since I've been ( and I only climbed there the once), but The Brenin matting has a wedge rising from the foot of the wall to allow deeper matting without loosing wall height. In some twenty years of climbing outside I've never needing hospitalising due to climbing injury. These sloping Brenin pads did for my ankle in about twenty minutes and it was off to Ysbyty Gwynedd. Fucking Lethal.

[Nizza]

I'm pleased to say that as of this evening the Westway are changing their matting.  They are asking customers to comment on the options they have open to them to help them choose the best one.  If you are climb at the Westway please comment on their designs. 

[GraemeA]

The Foundry have had tapered mats for eons, not quite since they opened but for most of their time open, and, to the best of my knowledge, have had very few accidents that could be blamed on the mats. The Wave is quite steep though so you tended to hit the taper with your arse and only from low down

The Brenin has tapered mats on all angles including slabs so you could hit the taper from high up falling from a slab. Which was not the best idea.

[Johnny Brown]

Plus The Brenin taper is much steeper than the Foundry's. Its making me wince now remembering...

[Somebody's Fool]

Plus The Brenin taper is much steeper than the Foundry's.

You been in the foundry then? prove it! I smell a rat, when? who saw you? and were you with scott?

[north_country_boy]

Plus The Brenin taper is much steeper than the Foundry's.

You been in the foundry then? prove it! I smell a rat, when? who saw you? and were you with scott?

Scott's appearances at the foundry are like rocking horse shit, just like his witnesses for hard ascents.....

[GraemeA]

Anticipating such questions I took the precaution of getting a professional film crew to follow me around, the results can be seen on Hard Plastic 

[David S]

Hard Plastic with a film crew - ooh missus

[TRNovice]

I'm pleased to say that as of this evening the Westway are changing their matting.  They are asking customers to comment on the options they have open to them to help them choose the best one.  If you are climb at the Westway please comment on their designs. 

Have never posted on here before, but as a recent convert to bouldering at The Westway, I can only hope that common sense has broken out as suggested by the above. You don't need to be the world's most experienced climber, or an expert in the engineering considerations of human/foam impacts to see that the arrangement in the initial photo is ridiculous.

I have just spent 12 months getting over an ankle injury caused by landing with the ball of my foot on a bouldering mat and the heel over the edge. The mat in question is about 4-5 inches deep (I'm sure the precise measurements are on the DMM site somewhere), God only knows what would happen to someone landing with their feet half on the edge shown, or even with one foot on the upper level and one of the lower. Backslapping onto the edge could conceivably be a major problem.

We all know that climbing involves risks, even indoor climbing, even indoor bouldering. However that doesn't meant that having a pit of crocodiles or a pool of lava under problems is a good idea. That sort of nonsense should be left for grit E-stupids surely.

I'd appreciate a confirmation that the death-trap is being re-thought. If not, then I'll probably take up the idea of a few earlier posters and write to The Westway pointing out the schoolboy error they have perpetrated.

[TRNovice]

From The Westway web-site:

The Westway will be hosting the national final of the BMC Youth Climbing Series on Saturday, the 20th June. As a result, the centre will be CLOSED FOR CASUAL CLIMBING ON THE DAY. The lead climbing area and all bouldering will beclosed or severely restricted from Wednesday, the 17th June to Sunday, the 21st June due to the setting for the competition. The walls will re-open again from Monday, the 22nd June.

Maybe the new mat is actually seating for the comp - it's the only explanation that makes any sense!

[Rocksteady]

I was at the Westway yesterday and they've rectified the step in the matting with a wedge.

[slackline]

I was at the Westway yesterday and they've rectified the step in the matting with a wedge.

Is it the thin end though?

[Rocksteady]

 

Is there a smiley for "badoom tch" or "parp parp"?

[clm]

can we have a photo please?

Can we have a UKB solidarity salute smiley created please ( along the black panthers line)

And doesnt the westways guy who wrote loads defending himself now feel like a bit of a twat?