[Kingy]

Yes Ian, I agree with the E grade system outlined in the chuffing thread that bases everything on French grades.

For a route to be E11 it would either have to be well protected F9b/F9b+, serious 9a/9a+ or a death 8c/8c+. For E10, the scale would be shifted downwards a notch to be well-protected 9a/9a+, serious 8c/8c+ or death 8b/8b+.

I don't know what French grade a Font 8a boulder problem would get, maybe 8c?? Applying the above scale, if it was serious but not death on a stick, the maximum it could get would be E10 or if well-protected then E9. If the problem was rated 8b+ then it would be a serious E9 or a safe E8....which is what Kevin J is proposing for the Groove.

[SA Chris]

And FFS take them to Wales or the Lakes or Scotland or SOMEWHERE other than fucking grit. Its not all the country has to offer you know. Perhaps they might be tested there.

Unfortunately Echo Wall has probably disappeared for the year under ice and snow, likewise the hard challenges of Shelterstone etc. Maybe they could come up here and try to come to terms with the winter climbing grades and what is regarded as in or not in condtion.

[SA Chris]

Better to send them SW, a few challenging routes down there for them to have a go on, both solid and otherwise.

[Ru]

At the risk of getting all Occum's Razor on everyone's ass, isn't the simplest explanation for the current brouhaha that these American chaps are unfamiliar with UK trad grading?

After 6 weeks of crushing on grit, these Americans have arguably as much experience, or more, at the top end of grit routing, and grading as anyone. Suggesting that because they've not grown up with the system, therefore they can't help but fail to understand the intricacies of the system seems absurd. What are you suggesting that they've misunderstood about the E grade, what factor are they failing to consider?

[Sloper]

Ru, I think that they have as much experience of top end grit climbing as anyone but not of the myriad complexities of the british grading system, which I would suggest is borne of the length of one's experience of climbing with the system rather than the grade of their ascents and the former does not equate to the later (for example despite being a punter of some experience its well known my grading ability is somewhat retarded.

As I set out in the thread now in the bouldering area (which I intended to post it in) grades at the cutting edge are a highly subjective matter and can only be properly assessed against established norms, and in the absence of what are established norms for what is E10 etc their views should not be taken as definitive just as James' proposed grades are subject to revision.

The understanding of the system or not is a moot point, grades take a while to stabilise, remember the banner 'could this be Britain's first 6c'?  That it turned out to be 6a did not mean the FA was guilty of over grading or egotism (although I think that the FA did not propose the grade) much as it took a while for 7a to become accepted as reality and just as it will for the current grades to have a framework within which to judge them.

Anyway if I'm rambling that's because today I'm being dad and Hugo's demanding my attention.

Regards

Tom

[Andy B]

I fully agree with Dave, Jasper, T_B and Moose et al.

[Will Hunt]

Yeah cloggy will be in great nick at the mo.

Fiend, you picked a bad example and you know it. Wales has much more to offer than that.
Slate, the polar opposite to grit might test them and it'd be great to see stuff like The Quarryman get more repeats.
Then they could head to Gogarth and do some awesome routes there. Plenty bold and hard enough to keep them interested.
There'll probably be something dry in the Pass too.
A confirmed onsight of Strawberries whet anyone's appetite?

Need I go on?

It seems such a shame that they come for 6 weeks (which must nearly be up now surely?) and see nothing but grit which, don't get me wrong, is a fantastic medium but not at all the only good rock in the UK.
To claim that "Oh but its raining in those areas" is a weak effort and a mere get out clause in excuse of laziness. Sure it rains a bit more than the peak but there have been good days there a plenty and its not like slate takes a long time to dry now is it?

Sorry for the rant which is, in retrospect, a bit overly bitter than how I meant it to sound but isn't Ilkley the furthest away that they've been?

[andy_e]

A confirmed onsight of Strawberries whet anyone's appetite?

Nobody will ever onsight it since it's the hardest V4 in the world.

[Johnny Brown]

A couple of points; firstly, the 'one-handed slap' is not the crux of the groove, the deadpoint to the break is. From what chatting to Kevin the slap is the easiest sequence on the lower section, but it is possible by more conventional moves. I think he did this bit pretty quickly considering the reputation.

As for the line, I've been all over this wall and I'm not convinced there is a logical line up it at all; if there is it would involve starting up the groove then following the flakeline above and levitating to the fernhill break. Futuristic indeed, but the best line - this should become the LGP of the future - desperate, likely dynamic, but very safe. James' line is the next best, so understandable, though I'd say the true finish awaits. I think this lack of an obvious feasible finish may have contributed to its lack of attention. Neil's capping roof to me makes a more obvious finish to the arete integrale which awaits an ascent - the rest of the component sections have been done.

As for the grade, I agree with Ru that it is quite possible to have an opinion without going on it. I'm a little reluctant to offer an opinion as I don't want to seen as a detractor on waht remains a superb effort, but to be honest I was surprised when James gave it E10, and very surprised when he proposed E11. Surely the public understand the grades enough to be impressed by 7b without a huge E number. I was tempted to give it E9 when writing the guide script, as this would seem to be logical compared to similar routes and the scale as I understand it, (ie its desperate but not sustained, and only one move is dangerous, but nowhere terminal) but didn't as I figured I'd rather not take on the responsibility for getting it wrong...

Whatever, it looks like one of the best moves on grit, one I'd sorely like to do and good enough to make my ground-up resolve waver a little. Kevin's ascent has made it seem a little less impossible, so maybe I'll not need to compromise...

[abarro81]

What are you suggesting that they've misunderstood about the E grade, what factor are they failing to consider?

Well if Honnold thinks EOTA is E6, then he's failing to consider just how easy most of our bold trad routes are... it would make nosferatu soft e4, downhill racer a tricky e2 and great slab a nice little hvs...

[Bonjoy]

Specific routes aside, does it make sense to do for instance six hard routes and think one is undergraded and five are overgraded? Is it not more logical to assume one is undergraded and five are correct? I know this is a gross simplification BTW. It seems plausible based on ascents so far that if KJ went on to tick every single route of E7 and above on grit he would think more than half were overgraded. If this is so then KJ's issue would seem to be with the entire application of the e grade on grit more than a handful of routes per se. That said, where grades are based on incorrect assumptions about the danger level it seems likely the grades will be too high.
Sensible debate on grades is fine but idiots having a dig at James (and there does seem to be a few kicking about at the mo, on and off the internet) need to get a grip. This is the guy who went out and did the big lines! When all is said and done the grades are of infinitely lesser importance the ascents themselves.

[cofe]

This is the guy who went out and did the big lines! When all is said and done the grades are of infinitely lesser importance the ascents themselves.

bingo. as an aside, the latter sentence above could also be said to be the case for both james and the yanks.

[PATRuL]

AbSoDiddlidootlee
He came he went to work and he conquered (sorry a bit old fashioned and SuperPowerObsessed - perhaps climbed would be a better substitute)
Time doesnee matter its the journey along the way
What one learns on that journey is of the most stark importance
Even getting to the top is meaningless if one is journeying in the correct fashion
One could easily fall over on the descent down and one would then know that the so called end was of more importance than the journey ...
And then where would one be?
... Most probably stuck up in one's head, thinking of glory, oooOooh the gloss!!!

[Nigel]

I should like to add my two-penneth regarding the groove section of The Groove. There does seem to be a bit of climbing myth attached to this piece of rock which is a little out of all proportion to the reality.

The assertion that because it was a project for 20 years and didn't get done it must be nails/harder than E8 is fallacious. Firstly, I'm afraid that the odd attempt by Paul Mitchell, Johnny Dawes, and assorted '80's beasts to climb it as a groove (impossible) does not count. Secondly, when climbed as an arete (fairly obvious I thought?) the only truly hard move is the one to the break, as JB asserts. I know because I tried this section in about 2002 or 3 with Scut, we had one brief session and ended up figuring out all the moves, all of which Scut definately did (I didn't). It is in the 7c+ ballpark as Kevin Jorgeson says. 7c+ as we know does not represent the cutting edge, however obviously this is a very high standard on a route and so even armed with the correct beta then yes it would probably have held out through the '80's and '90's until the invention of Miles Gibson. I can only presume he didn't try it, as his routes are comparable (7c+/8a boulder problems with manageable falls - Superstition, Fagus Sylvatica). These routes get E8 7a and unless we have calls for them to be upgraded (which may be justified) then I see no reason why suggesting E8 for the first section of The Groove is unreasonable.

Other points:

1) I have no idea if this is true as I don't read climbing mags but I think I read that James thought this section warranted Font 8a+? I'm sure this would have a large reflection in the E grade as it would make it phenomenally hard for the hypothetical onsight. However, as Kevin says it is about 7c+.

2) Anecdotally, does it surprise anyone that E8 is suggested rather than E10/11? I know that a route in a similiar vein, Blind Vision, was roundly mocked by everyone and his dog as being "never E10". Was that because it was Adrian Berry (hardly Mr Popular UK) rather than James (all round nice guy and real life personal friend of most commentators on here)? Personally, I was surprised that James gave it E10 as from my play on it I felt that it fell in the "safe but nails" category for which E8 was perfectly appropriate given my understanding of the grading system. I think the subsequent suggestion of E11 indicates that James has a different understanding altogether (although maybe not as if he felt it was a very dangerous Font 8a+ then yes E10/11 seems in line with my understanding).

Regarding the top section I have no idea as I have never tried it, although I can't see it bumping the E grade up unless it is very hard (since it is safe and has a good rest beneath). This is a guess though!

[IanP]

Sensible debate on grades is fine but idiots having a dig at James (and there does seem to be a few kicking about at the mo, on and off the internet) need to get a grip. This is the guy who went out and did the big lines! When all is said and done the grades are of infinitely lesser importance the ascents themselves.

I don't see too many 'idiots having a dig', maybe you see me as one of them.  You still haven't answered the question above - do you consider E11's and E12 to be harder 'challenge' than all but the very hardest sport routes in the world.  I don't argue with achievements I just don't understand the grading - after all aren't the 5 biggest unrepeated 'E10's' in the country those on some white rock climbed by a steely fingered Sheffield resident!

[Percy B]

This post is irrelevant, out of context, and has taken me so long to type that there have been pages of debate whilst I've been tapping away with my huge fingers. There's no way I'm wasting it now though, so I'll post it anyway.

Sheffield possibly has the highest concentration of climbers of any UK town or city who have the strength and ability to climb all the routes on Kevin's ticklist. There are so many people in Sheffield who are amazingly talented and superhumanly strong, and who live a maximum of 25 minutes drive from all the climbs Kevin has done, yet most haven't climbed even one of them. A lot seem more content to train hard, carry strong opinions on all aspects of climbing and be hypercritical of the efforts of others. But there ain't so many folks out there doing any more - there are a few, but not a lot performing at the top end when you consider how many insanely strong folks you see down any of the Sheffield walls of an evening.
Please remember how good a climber Kevin is - he's climbed Font 8b+ and route 9a and is obviously more than happy to push the boat out on bold routes (soloing a 12oo foot E6 for example). Why are people so shocked when good foreign climber(s) come over for a trip that lasts longer than the average spell of rain then have a blast on our beautiful routes? Flippin'eck, world climbing standards have moved on somewhat in the last 5 years - sometimes I think time in the peak stopped when Ben did Hubble and Jerry did the Ace. The modern cutting edge for routes is 9b+ and for bouldering it's 8c+. Why are we suprised when punters like team America come over and do everything? Apparently there's a bunch of proper strong Americans due over in the new year (Pringle, etc), at which point we may well have reason to have our noses really put out of joint...
Good on 'em, I say. Maybe it might show the strong and capable that they should get out more. Its no good living 10 minutes from Burbage and being able to do 15 one armers, and then moaning because you didn't get out and do The Promise before some strong foreigner cruised it and downgraded it. The best people to qualify the grades of routes are those who've done them. Everybody else is just guessing. Everybody thinks its funny when Dan Variable and Nedwin Van Der Freewilly do a load of 'hard grit' routes ground up with a load of mats, and then declare everything to be Font 7c - but maybe they're right?! They're the ones who've done the deed, so they should know, right?

Sorry to bitch on - obviously whilst I want all you local strong young things to start doing a bit less on the board and more on the crag my advanced years, tweaky joints and the fact that I'm shit preclude me from joining you. I'll give you a spot tho'! Well....maybe just for the start....

By the way, I heard that Kevin has soloed Meshuga twice - once when he first did it, and then the other day for photos.

 

[Shy Yorkshireman]

Nice one Percy! You don't want all them strong youths outdoors though, remember the credit crunch! although there was no sign of that down your place on sunday.

Oh and the route that started this was the statesman? I always thought that the statesman was either E9 or Gaia and End of were hard E7! Just a thought.

And will pat who ever, either talk some sense or shut the fuck up! Were all having fun just in different ways, A quick look at some of the shit on my hard drive will prove that point, were all different.

[Paul B]

Sheffield possibly has the highest concentration of climbers of any UK town or city who have the strength and ability to climb all the routes on Kevin's ticklist. There are so many people in Sheffield who are amazingly talented and superhumanly strong, and who live a maximum of 25 minutes drive from all the climbs Kevin has done, yet most haven't climbed even one of them. A lot seem more content to train hard, carry strong opinions on all aspects of climbing and be hypercritical of the efforts of others. But there ain't so many folks out there doing any more - there are a few, but not a lot performing at the top end when you consider how many insanely strong folks you see down any of the Sheffield walls of an evening.

Completely glossing over the fact that the vast majority of those strong f*ckers not only keep you (or more likely the foundry) in business but also hold down full time jobs? As you'll note, when it rains at the weekend there's nothing you can do about it!

Sorry to bitch on - obviously whilst I want all you local strong young things to start doing a bit less on the board and more on the crag my advanced years, tweaky joints and the fact that I'm shit preclude me from joining you. I'll give you a spot tho'! Well....maybe just for the start....

why do people insist on comments like this, MAYBE just MAYBE, grit routes don't get everyone drooling at the mouth. Let people do what they want and quit whining about it.


F*cking good effort to Team America on all their ascents on this trip. I can't say which is the most impressive but there are a few that really stand out to me!
F*cking good effort to Nedulus and the Varient on their recent ascents.

[Percy B]

Sorry to bitch on - obviously whilst I want all you local strong young things to start doing a bit less on the board and more on the crag my advanced years, tweaky joints and the fact that I'm shit preclude me from joining you. I'll give you a spot tho'! Well....maybe just for the start....

why do people insist on comments like this, MAYBE just MAYBE, grit routes don't get everyone drooling at the mouth. Let people do what they want and quit whining about it.

I hope you don't think I was including you when I spoke of strong local youths, Paul?
And I agree that pushing the boat out on scary grit things isn't everybodies bag, so how come no-one is climbing at top level on the lime compared to the rest of the world? Like I said, world top level for sport routes is 9b+ - I don't see the british youths putting up a lot of routes of this standard. Even 8c FA's or repeats are news in the UK - in the Basque country there are more than 20 local climbers (male and female) who've climbed 9a or harder, and its a country smaller than Wales (No bullshit - I've been and seen). Yes, our weather is shit, and our rock not much better. But Ste McClure does alright and he's 457 years old and has kids and has to work for a living....
I just get a little peeved with the fact that there seems to be a widespread lack of motivation to go climbing and push things forward a bit from some of the people who have the ability to do so. Thank god for tourists who are pysched!

[Paul B]

I don't know but that's for a thread in its own right, and it probably exists in some form or another already. I'd also like to add that the perceived level of achievement in this country is low due to the stern nature of the grades and routes (sport and those little rocks). I'll probably eat my own words in Jan/Feb when they all come and piss the ace, voyager and keen roof before flashing Hubble but until then I stand by my point. Lets not forget Marcus Bock didn't fair too well at the tor now did he?

I just get a little peeved with the fact that there seems to be a widespread lack of motivation to go climbing and push things forward a bit from some of the people who have the ability to do so. Thank god for tourists who are pysched!

In climbing the great thing is you can do whatever you like, if you're motivated to climb every day AKA Johnny Brown and turn into a grit legend then good on you, equally if you want to knuckle down and unleash on the world after only a few years, (on Action Directe perhaps?), or just to tick one thing that you always wanted to climb then I welcome thee. You can get peeved all you like about people not doing these things; the bottom line is you should get out there and do it yourself if it matters so deeply.
Anyway don't sweat it, it won't be long before Pete Whittaker, The Champ etc. do us proud.

[dave]

Sheffield possibly has the highest concentration of climbers of any UK town or city who have the strength and ability to climb all the routes on Kevin's ticklist. There are so many people in Sheffield who are amazingly talented and superhumanly strong, and who live a maximum of 25 minutes drive from all the climbs Kevin has done, yet most haven't climbed even one of them....

percy sorry to be abrupt but this post is the biggest load of shit i've ever read. You rightly point out that kevin has done "Font 8b+ and route 9a". So who are these scores of sheffield residents who've got this pedigree that you think should be out ticking off E9-11s? steve mclure, plus who exactly?

You always bang on about, and seem to revel in, the notion of foreign climbers coming over here and "putting our noses out of joint", time and time again. Again this strange notion that we'd somehow be pissed off at johnny foreigner coming over here and having sucess. Now it seems to me that the vast majority of people who've passed any kind of comment on the recent sendings of the yanks have been nothing but supportive, rather than depicting the rather insular cliquey xenophobic world you seem to which to project upon the rest of us. maybe because we're not rubbing shoulders with pierre strongcrimp at international routesetting exams we all live in this bubble, living in fear of the next wave of percy-endorsed eurowads to come and crush everying we hold dear.

well heres a thing, despite your insistance that theres these thousands of foreign climbers waiting in the wings to destroy britian, it scarcely ever happens, and when it does everyone is more than psyched for them. so hows about giving it a rest with all the bullshit, and stop trying to stir up controversy where it doesn't exist.

[Percy B]

There's nothing wrong with being abrupt, and there's nothing wrong with having an opinion.
There's little excuse for being rude though.

[n_man]

There's nothing wrong with being abrupt, and there's nothing wrong with having an opinion.
There's little excuse for being rude though.

 

[ferret]

jeez wot a hullabuloo

1stly james is an awesome climber...end of story

2ndly i for one am all for these guys coming over and offering their considered opinions (based on whatever experience they may hav) grading is always supposed to based on consensus and the problem is with alot of hard routes is they hav very few repeats if any to create a consensus. i personally wud much rather hear coments of about downgrading than hav people repeating routes and making no comments on the grade out of fear of a public backlash or to keep the sponsors happy.
i dont see why any of this is any great shock, everybody knows gaia and eota are soft and to my understanding it was only the fact that they FEEL reaally fuckin scarey that was holding the grade at e8, this is either a missgrading or  a sublety of the english grade the a visitor cud easily miss time will tell.
parthian shot was well known to be easy for e9 after the flake proved to hold numerous falls (especially from the several tonnes of muscle that is neil bentley) and i understood that both neil and nick placed all gear on the lead on their ascents meaning that it was more pumpy fr8bish? and that this balanced out the reduction in danger holding the grade at e9. so any ascent with preplaced gear is scraping the very bottom of the e9 barrell. (stunning ground up ascent never the less!!)
as for the promise and the groove maybe james just got it wrong he is constantly operating on the cutting edge where it is hard to get any kind of grading consensus, and as we all know friction, and wot u had for breakfast last wednesday can dramatically change how a grit route climbs and feels.
all in all gaia flash no big suprise, eota flashed err ryan already did it, parthian shot ground up.. not many other grit e9s u cant consistently fall off allmost every move without injury or death

but ....super psyching amazing efforts well done to all involved, keep cranking and keep commenting.......and for ffs EQUILIBRIUM!

[fatkid2000]

I just get a little peeved with the fact that there seems to be a widespread lack of motivation to go climbing and push things forward a bit from some of the people who have the ability to do so. Thank god for tourists who are pysched!

Isn't this just a summing up of British society at the moment - lots of moaning and lack of motivation to achieve something whether it be climbing or general stuff like work & jobs. People just seem to think they can get something now and not put any effort in. Due to the sporadic nature of my climbing & bouldering I usually keep out of these discussions - but in my mind people are talking alot about the same routes that have been talked about for the past ten years. Maybe route progression or the pushing of standards in the peak is slow due to a variety of reasons - and people only take note of how slow when some tasty foreign climber comes and pisses all over those routes. Anyway I'll shut up now and get back on my bike.