[Adam Lincoln]

Some interesting pics up on the big up blog. Don't look if your split tip sensitive!

[benpritch]

does anyone remember Anthoine LeMenestral soloing revelations? (showing my age) Like someone coming and soloing Overshadow now? This recent spate of grit repeats, whilst totally excellent,  is hardly in the same ballpark as that. I suspect LeMenestrals soloing shenanigans had a positive effect on climbing here as will the impressive repeats by the americans recently.

[Jaspersharpe]

Thing was it made everyone think that the French must have been light years ahead of us and that this was the kind of thing they did all the time. In reality it is still one of the most impressive climbing feats of all time as Anthoine Le Men was only climbing a couple of grades harder than Revelations at the time (8b or maybe he'd done Rage De Vivre by then I'm not sure). You're right though Ben, it certainly helped give Ben and Jerry the kick up the arse to get strong, go to France and spank all their hard routes.

[neil h]

i did not really want to post his picture, but I think all this talk about james being a massive overgrader is getting a little bit silly now,


James is a great climber and loves what he does whoever made this pic should be shot

[Fiend]

i did not really want to post his picture, but I think all this talk about james being a massive overgrader is getting a little bit silly now,

Well don't give the anonymous sniping idiots any more exposure. THIS debate at least shows that the issue can be explored by people in a sensible way.

[cofe]

who made you post the pic then?

[Percy B]

What sort of a grade is '7 of diamonds', anyway?

[cofe]

it's an onsight grade, roughly equivalent to 26 (F7c).

[dave]

i think its fucking appauling how the knives appear to be out for pearson now, seemingly off the back of this groove thing. he originally gave it E10 and given all the info now on the table then the line he did may end up being E9, which is within the usual grading margin for error. OK saying it might be E11 after the event on his blog night have been a faux-pas, but i just don't see this justifying all the vitriol goung around right now.

[Palomides]

I completely agree with dave. I don't know James, or any of you other mofos, but I really don't like the tone of all the "he got the grade wrong, therefore he's shit" rubbish that's coming out (mostly on the other channel, it has to be said).

So what if he got the grade wrong by one or two E-grades? That's easy to do (even I've done it, albeit at a much lower level).

At the risk of sounding more pompous than normal, history is not going to remember James as "the guy who overgraded everything". he will be remembered as the guy who did the first ascent of these awesome lines, irrespective of the grade.

[travs]

I couldn't agree more Dave. It's like everyone has lost all perspective overnight and assumed that James can't grade. James didn't pluck the grade out of thin air. He has obviously taken his experiences from doing routes like Equilibrium and tried to make a comparative statement which is that for him the groove was equally as difficult as an overall experience ie better protected but technically harder. Now the difficulty arises in trying to breakdown the 2 experiences into a comparative situation. That is how the 2 routes suited his phsique, conditions on the day of ascent and so on. This is hugely difficult to do as I know from experience. I spent days and days doing Neil's wall sit start at beginners wall and was convinced it was 8a+. The problem I created for myself was that I tried the problem in isolation in the middle of the hottest summer on record. The result was that I didn't have the best sequence, conditions weren't perfect and in addition it was way way easier if you were over 5ft 10. So does this mean I can't grade - of course not - it just means that the experience of doing the route/problem is different for different people and so they come to a different grading conclusion. I really sympathise with James, he hasn't done anything wrong, he climbed a new route, had to grade it, and used his past experiences to do so. Just because one person finds a route easier doesn't mean a route is any easier, we need more ascents before that conclusion can be drawn.

[Jaspersharpe]

Just because one person finds a route easier doesn't mean a route is any easier, we need more ascents before that conclusion can be drawn.

Nail on head.

I don't know James either so accusations that it's just "his mates" defending him are utter crap. This is not just "expressing opinions" it's blatantly slagging someone off for no reason. The embarrasing thing about being English at the moment is not the standard of our climbing but the standard of our armchair critics' attitude.

[magpie]

I really sympathise with James, he hasn't done anything wrong, he climbed a new route, had to grade it, and used his past experiences to do so. Just because one person finds a route easier doesn't mean a route is any easier, we need more ascents before that conclusion can be drawn.

Exactly, total sense, well said Travs.

Edit: And Jasper.

[Jim]

I might be wrong but I think the main reason James upgraded it was because he tried another E11, did all the moves in one session and thought it to be relatively easy compared to the Groove.


Its a shame idiots like gangle have ruined what is quite a good thread.
Climbers like Pearson, McCloud and McClure have been pushing British standards for a while now.
Maybe James needs to change his name to McPearson?

[benpritch]

exactly travs - james and dmc leod are the only people doing hard headpoint s at the mo (oh and jordan sorry) so they are operating in a bubble with no moderating influences until now. until these routes have been done a few more times they will remain difficult to grade and therefore there is bound to be some fluctuation in peoples very subjective opinion of a route s true difficulty. no one seems to be taking into account that james eschews the use of mats. whatver your opinion of this ethical standpoint it definitely has a huge bearing on the feel of a little gritty route. big pile of boulders - large bouldering mat you choose.

[Jim]

Another good point there pritch, forgot to mention that

[Krank]

I also think its dreadfull the bashing that James is getting, especially when both of the routes climbed and downgraded were done in a different way or not done at all. The promise was done using a different sequence and with mats and The Groove wasn't done at all. Did KJ not say that Pearsons sequences on both where impossible, IMPOSSIBLE. I don't know Mr Pearson but i hope the shit talked about his monster achievements are ignored.

[grumpycrumpy]

Critics are like eunuchs at an orgy ..... They can talk about what's going on , but they haven't got the balls to do it themselves .....

[SA Chris]

Critics are like eunuchs at an orgy ..... They can talk about what's going on , but they haven't got the balls to do it themselves .....

I like it. And of all the critics, wonder how many have ever actually done a FA, and of those how many have never got a grade wrong, cutting edge or not.

(not that I am saying he actually has got the grade wrong, as I am still not convinced by the evidence).

[nash1]

This is just a case of numpties and the media blowing it all way out of proportion. These Americans have certainly impressed no end. Amazing stuff by both of them. The way I see it is that they have made Pearson look even better, not an overgrader.

Facts: KJ couldn't do Equilibrium in 6 or whatever days. He did the Promise with easier beta, rightly downgrading it, as others say it is hard to see the wood for the trees on an FA so James got it wrong, big deal. KJ couldn't do the Groove. He did a variation, which is easier.

KJ seems like a nice bloke from the stuff you read and has in no way dissed JP.

A sad tale about some wicked stuff. That tick list is legendary. They should be proud.

Inspiring, I guess most of us sensible folk just take that away from this and none of this 2008-internet-forum-wannbees-media-hype-shyte.

[IanP]

I like it. And of all the critics, wonder how many have ever actually done a FA, and of those how many have never got a grade wrong, cutting edge or not.

(not that I am saying he actually has got the grade wrong, as I am still not convinced by the evidence).

I've never done a FA and I am not questioning the fact that some very impressive routes have been climbed by JP and DM.  But at the risk of sounding like a stuck record E10 should be hard and I think great care should be taken with using grades of E11 and above.  It took 16 years to get from E9 to 10, Overshadow is 'only' hard E10 - asking questions about what a grade means is something that can be done without having direct experience of that grade.  If you want to throw insults around feel free to accuse me of having a nerdish interest in such things, but leave off with the histrionics please 

[SA Chris]

I don't see it as histionics, only opinion giving. Why do you view it as histrionics? Would love to insult you based on that response, but won't

[Danger]

It took 16 years to get from E9 to 10

It took less then a year to get from E8 to E9

[richdraws]

I haven't read UKC recently and neither am I going to, but on this thread there are about 100 deafening, clamering, outraged voices defending James Pearson from the evil hordes, which amount to just Gangle. Pearson surely does not require this amount of defence from UKB readers. If you feel UKC are being unjust to Pearson then get over there and defend him, but it sounds a bit pathetic on here where 99% of people have respect for Pearsons efforts.

[Stu Littlefair]

I tried so hard not to post on this thread, but the last page or so has quite pissed me off.

You all seem to be saying that there is absolutely no place for discussion about this, and all James' critics should just shut up. I think this is totally indefensible. I can readily accept that some of the debate has been childish, and thoughtless, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to think about here, both for the wider public and James in general. For fiend to highlight this thread as a paragon of sensible discussion when perhaps a third of the posts are people suggesting that anyone considering that James's routes might be overgraded are "player-haters", "sniping idiots" or simply without bollocks is just amazing.

James is a really great climber; he's keen, he's talented and his solution to the Groove could almost be described as visionary. I've seen him described on these forums as "the climber of our generation", and the way he describes his routes ("the hardest route on grit", "with hindsight E11") backs this up.

In this context, someone repeating these routes and suggesting (as Kevin did on his blog) that they are no harder than some of Miles Gibson's ten year old grit routes is well worth thinking about. On the flip-side, it's only one person's opinion and we all know how much slop there can be in grading. Does this mean James's routes are overgraded? Who knows. It's equally possible that Miles was climbing E9/10 all those years ago (perhaps more likely, knowing what a beast Miles is). Clearly, to reach a decision IN EITHER DIRECTION about whether James's routes are realistically graded is premature at the moment. Surely though, in the light of Kevin's trip, it's at least reasonable to discuss the possibility that James's grading frame of reference might be two grades out?