[Jaspersharpe]

This is going down the same path we have already covered.

However, I'm in total agreement with Paul B on two points. One: Yeah maybe Pringle or someone WILL come over and flash Hubble etc. Dave Graham didn't though did he? I'd be made up to see the top boys having a go at the hardest routes in the country and I'm sure Ste Mac would be too! It's about time we found out just how hard some of these things are. Two: With the stuff James, Ned, Dan V, Pete W, Tyler, Mickey P, Liam D, Smitton etc etc are doing I don't think the future looks so bad. Also, is it not belittling the achievements of those young climbers who are getting out there and doing some impressive stuff to go moaning on about how shit we are?

I'd take issue with one other thing. Percy, you say the World standard is 9b+ sport and 8C+ bouldering. Really? 

You probably know better than me but I thought Jumbo Love was widely considered to be the hardest route at 9b and I know that the hardest confirmed routes are definitely 9a+. Perhaps you mean Chilam....... Likewise, surely 8C is the top bouldering level if we're being sensible. No we don't have hundreds of climbers operating at these levels, nobody does. But we have young climbers who have already climbed 8C and 8c+. That's not bad. Again, you'll know better than me but we even have some kids doing ok in the junior comps don't we (no Ondra but hey.... )? The trad situation is similar. Everyone seems to be forgetting that although these grit routes are hard, they aren't the hardest trad routes in the country by quite a bit.

I've said it before but I really don't get what all the fuss is about. 

Isn't this just a summing up of British society at the moment - lots of moaning and lack of motivation to achieve something whether it be climbing or general stuff like work & jobs. People just seem to think they can get something now and not put any effort in.

Whilst I agree that this is a major problem in British society in general I think again that it's belittling the hard work and commitment shown by many young climbers in this country to bracket them in with the lazy, workshy chav generation. One of things that inspires me is seeing so many kids and teenagers down The Works of an evening or weekend instead of hanging around shops sniffing crack and smoking glue.

Oh and ferret - I agree with all that too.

[n_man]

Back to the main man, Joregson, its seems will be very much slowed down.

http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf

Real bummer of a flapper that. I really feel for anyone with 7 days left on a trip with something like that. Amazingly he didn't suggest a downgrade for Equilibrium.

[dave]

that'd be reet with a bit of superglue and tape! he'd at least be able to knock of a few dozen classic E1-E6s and get a full grasp of the grade range. be a good way to wind down the trip, tick all the classic routes.

note how he says:

I had an amazing trip out to the Grit, experiencing some of the best climbing anywhere and hanging
out with the nicest group of climbers I’ve met anywhere. A big thank you goes out to everyone who
helped us out at one point or another on the trip: with rides, beta, places to sleep, free coffee, ect.
You know who you are. Thank you!

rather than:

a big "fuck you" to all the cliquey locals who've done nothing but give me shit for putting their noses out of joint and lighting a fire under their precious jingoistic scene

which i think speaks volumes. good lad, sounds like they had the trip of a lifetime.

[SA Chris]

However, I'm in total agreement with Paul B on two points. One: Yeah maybe Pringle or someone WILL come over and flash Hubble etc. Dave Graham didn't though did he? I'd be made up to see the top boys having a go at the hardest routes in the country and I'm sure Ste Mac would be too!

And if they get on OK with those, they can have a go at some of the Godskin probs.

[ferret]

dam it no equilibrium

but while im on a rant i find this guys honest approach to attempt to grade the routes hes climbed a breath of fresh air compared to the media sensationalism of dvds like consumed.

i remember something along the lines of dave mcloud comes to the peak intending on clibimg an e10 with the choice of equuilibrium or blind vision.

wot it shud of said was:

he had the choice between attempting one of gritsones best hard lines which had recieved 2 repeats confirming the grade, and a route graded by a cross between a mathmaticall equation and recreational drugs/too much beer/pls give me a headline, thats generally regarded as a laughing stock in sheffield pups and is so easy he can do it it in the dark!! still on the vid theres the big e10 grade and that wot counts
this is followed by adam long, keeper of the secrets of gritsone and defender of the planet ethics, doin a 25 feet e8 ground up above several mats the size of bouncy castles, no comment is made about this effectively reducing it to a highball boulder problem!

dont get me wrong this is not a dig at the climbers in question (i wudnt fancy angels share even with that many pads) more a dig at the lack of honest media representation and the fact that big grades sell mags/dvds and r thus sometimes deliberately misrepresented

if these guys wanna say that all these routes are easy id rather that than routes never get downgraded because headlines a more important  than an accurate report.

[stevie haston]

good morning, there have been some interesting stuff on this thread, its kinda overlapping the British standards thread. I f every one stays polite things might happen. I know some peoplz dont want end of the affair to go down but if it did it would make things very simple, it is perhaps on the cusp? It does look like the groove is E8, doesnt it? Plenty of 8b on bokts with worse falls than the groove, although a V10 crux might be 8b+. I have to repeat there is so much to agree on in this thread, the weather is shit that does keep you back (destroyes motivation), gritstone is not the beall foe many, why risk broken ankles etc when your not going to get much for it. There has been a bit of playing around with the grades(for 25 years poss), its normal for people to do this when they can earn some money out of it, its not right though. It does look like when you do get an 9a climber (jorge has done one little one) they do alot of damage on socalled trad. Look at McClure, a solid 9a climber. I happen to agree with Percy but maybe I am wrong, but there is definatly a graet deal of strength not just in Sheffield but in britain and if those lads are happy well ok. I am pissed off for not using what strength I had and not ticking some big routes, Each obviously to their own. Things have moved on from Hubble but in my humble opinion only a little, I told Ben he made a mistake grading it 8C+, he should have graded it 9a and got the money he needed to make the next step, still Ben was honest and tou have to give him that. The E grade thing isnt broken but could do with sorting out. If Strawberries is E6 surely some gritstone E8 need bringing down. Stay cool and I didnt mention sit down starts once. McClure is definatly doing Ok for some one of 457 years old! Stevie

[Bonjoy]

Nigel - You’ve got a good mind …that’s why I hired you.
It does seem possible that people suspended their scepticism regarding the grades of The Promise and The Groove because James is a friend and all round one of the good guys. Maybe the subsequent lack of critical feedback on the grades didn’t help.
It’s also plausible to see how James could overestimate the bouldering grade of the crux if he was basing his comparisons on foreign probs which have subsequently been downgraded. It’s perhaps easy to forget that despite his maturity James is still pretty young and his experience is consequently limited.

I don't see too many 'idiots having a dig', maybe you see me as one of them.  You still haven't answered the question above - do you consider E11's and E12 to be harder 'challenge' than all but the very hardest sport routes in the world.  I don't argue with achievements I just don't understand the grading - after all aren't the 5 biggest unrepeated 'E10's' in the country those on some white rock climbed by a steely fingered Sheffield resident!

I wasn’t aware anyone had asked me that question. My honest answer to it is that I haven’t a clue. How can you reasonably compare two completely different things (neither of which I have any experience of). I might as well ask you which is harder, winning a snooker tournament or a F1 motor race?
My point regarding idiots was not pointed at you (I can’t recall what your post said to be honest). It was directed at a few comments I’ve heard from people missing the nuances of the debate and characterising the issue as one of James being in some way responsible for a perceived national embarrassment.

I’m nothing but psyched to see people from other countries coming here and enjoying the grit in such an impressive fashion. The more the merrier, I’m looking forward to the next batch. I really think these visits will help stimulate some great deeds from the locals too. I’ve certainly been hearing people psyched to get out on some gritstone over 10 feet high and to try the remaining unclimbed lines, a lot more so than I have in recent years.

[IanP]

I wasn’t aware anyone had asked me that question. My honest answer to it is that I haven’t a clue. How can you reasonably compare two completely different things (neither of which I have any experience of). I might as well ask you which is harder, winning a snooker tournament or a F1 motor race?

The question earlier in the thread was 'I've brought this up before but never really received an explaination - if E11 and E12 exists then as far as I can see either such routes are the very hardest in the world or the definition of E grades has been changed at the upper end of the scale.'

It seems a completely reasonable question to me - if the E grade means anything (maybe you're among those that think it doesn't) then doesn't it simply attempt to ascribe a number to the overall difficulty / challenge of a climb taking it account the physical difficulty of the the climbing and other factors such as protection and seriousness
Therefore we are saying that climbing a well protected (say) E5 is roughtly equivalent as an overall challenge to climbing a serious unprotected E5. Obviously an individual climber may find one or other easier but this doesn't invalidate the system anymore than sport grades being used for 35m stamina marathons with no hard moves and 10m bouldery routes with desparate moves.

If this is true then its not too great a leap to compare a trad route to sport route based on the assumed continuation of the 2 sport grades to one trad grade giving 9a/9a+ as roughly equivalent to E10.

As to comparing 2 totally different things I'd be happy bet its a bit more likely that Adam Ondra could repeat The Walk of Life than Lewis Hamilton win the world snooker championship but you never know 

[Jim]

For all the player haters out there, just rememeber that James did equilibrium in 3 sessions when he wasn't climbing very well.

Also the title of this thread is incorrect.

Also Percy, Stevie etc... I know you are trying to stir up a world dominating british trad climbing revolution but all you are doing is pissing the people off who are trying to do it.
All well and good saying I wish I had done harder routes on a bigger scale etc.. when I was younger, well, why didn't you? don't take it out on the next generation. I not sure why Hocking was joining in with this on another thread, your still young(ish) aren't you? Your part of the next generation, get out there and crank harder.
The next generation of talent is just starting to filter through, ryan, the champ and tony (I think) were out highballing every hard route on stanage at the weekend. I'm not sure how much they actually did but ned did careless torque and silk 2nd go and tony flashed silk. The future looks promising I think
Sorry if any of this is incorrect, I don't have time to read all the threads and I don't really read any of the chuffing threads, this is just my opinion based on the snippits I have read/heard.

Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope

anyway

This is what we should be proud of as british climbers:

I had an amazing trip out to the Grit, experiencing some of the best climbing anywhere and hanging
out with the nicest group of climbers I’ve met anywhere. A big thank you goes out to everyone who
helped us out at one point or another on the trip: with rides, beta, places to sleep, free coffee, ect.
You know who you are. Thank you!

[neil h]

well said that man

Just because the yanks are great it does not mean that our talent is shit and overgrade everything, more than half the people on these forums have probably never met any of these guys, never seen any of these guys climb so how can they judge

you dont know what its like standing under a hard grit route in the freezing cold wondering if your mate is going to die, and how can one comment on overgrading if they have climbed the routes themselves and have an understanding on the differnence between E8/9/10


have some waddage jim

[Kim]

For all the player haters out there, just rememeber that James did equilibrium in 3 sessions when he wasn't climbing very well.

That's pretty much what it boils down to. James pissed Equilibrium, found the promise and the groove hard, and graded them accordingly. KJ pissed at least part of the groove, couldn't do equilibrium, and graded them accordingly. Non story really.

Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope

You start at the bottom and finish at the top, that's how 

[Jim]

Kim - to be correct KJ couldn't do the Groove either.

Anyway its great to see these problems getting the attention they deserve

[Percy B]

Cheers Jim. You are quite right - I need not post during a grumpy 'man period' moment again.
There are still 'doers' out there, to make up for my own lack of doing. Ned wandering up Careless Torque 'again' this arvo reinforced this point for me.

Its nice that some folks can visit our muddy little island now and again and come away with a good impression of us, and have fun on our rocks.
All this reafirms my long held belief that grades are irrelevant evil, and can turn even the most sensible folks a little bit mental and rabid.....even me.

[grumpycrumpy]

   Ah , it warms the cockles of my heart when people kiss and make up , have a wad each .....

[SA Chris]

Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope

Isn't it pad pointing? Or is that prerehearsed? Padballing?

[grumpycrumpy]

crashed ascent ? .....

[Stubbs]

I hope you're joking re: the pads vs top roping thing jim, some punter on ukc said the same thing but i expect more on here...

[grimer]

Without being down on anyone else's achievements, would it be true to say that this is the most impressive grit tick list ever? Despite not doing Equilibrium, or the top move on James' version of The Groove, I still think that this was incredible. Repeating cutting edge routes, flashing at the limit, and soloing London Wall.

[SA Chris]

In recent times, and in such a short time, probably, but historically probably not.

[dave]

it is impressive, but have they done right eliminate?

[neil h]

Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope

Isn't it pad pointing? Or is that prerehearsed? Padballing?

in the new southern sandstone guide if you solo a route above pads, its classed as lead with protection, as you are not aload to lead on the sandstone


maybe soloed with pro

[Pantontino]

Without being down on anyone else's achievements, would it be true to say that this is the most impressive grit tick list ever? Despite not doing Equilibrium, or the top move on James' version of The Groove, I still think that this was incredible. Repeating cutting edge routes, flashing at the limit, and soloing London Wall.

This Yankie invasion has been the most energising and exciting thing in British climbing since...err...since the Belgiums came to Wales and tore the place up back in the summer.

All good myth-smashing, eye-popping stuff. The British bouldering scene would benefit from a similar shake up, although that may be less likely given how unassailable Gaskins' problems appear to be.

On a different note, I am slightly dismayed to see a tone of censorship slipping into this thread. Fair enough James' friends feel a sense of loyalty to him and wish to defend his reputation, but we all should be allowed to express our opinions/discuss what has been going on. I'm not a 'player hater' - far from it, I just think that there is something very interesting happening here.

I don't recall any shyness a few weeks back when people were openly questioning (and quite rightly too) Scott's amazingly fast ascents of The Joker and The Ace. All of our actions are up for scrutiny by our peers, this is especially true of those top players who seek publicity. 

[Krank]

Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope

Id call it the future . Being able to boulder higher and higher with less chance of ending up quadraspazed in Staffs general AE. I'd love a massive pile of Ronins to try higher, harder(for me) routes ground up. Its not even close to being as unethical as top roping.

[stevie haston]

hi guys, interesting posts. On a personal note, I am not a hater, I am a lover. I have been passionatly involved in climbing for 37 years, and might have a few more. Pantino made some good points about the british climbing scene being (and needing) shook up. I thought the Belgians did well in wales, they didnt tear us a new arsehole, but they showed us what strong motivated climbers can do.  The trip by the young yanks did the same but has rattled a couple of skelitons in the grading debate, so be it, dont blame me.  Stevie

[Johnny Brown]

Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope

Jim you half-wit, its called 'high-balling'.

Comments about highballing being poor style seem to be invariably made by those who haven't done it. I've climbed above some big pad stacks, never has that felt in any way comparable to a top-rope. When Friends were invented was it suggested they were cheating and you should only carry two per pitch? Probably, but now we can look back at such idiocy as fear of progress.

And I don't remember your 'virtual top-rope' helping you press fearlessly on up Thumbellina.

Plenty of us here are friends with James. I'd like to think that would mean we can make comment without affecting that, crag banter is certainly rather harsher. In that vein, I think The Groove at E11 will go down as one of the wildest overgrades in grit history. Do I need to reiterate that doesn't affect my respect for the ascent as one of the best pieces of climbing done in recent years? Unfortunately I probably do. This is exactly the problem with getting grades wrong - attention focuses on that not the route. Had it been given E8 7b all would have applauded the technical heights to which James had taken grit, and probably offered E9 for the fall and effort.