[stevie haston]

As you lot know more about Britain and the state of play, I thought I,d ask what you thought as my knowledge really is only about North Wales. Were these recent thrashings the Promise got significant or were they about time? Was the route over graded? Should you use pads on routes and then poo poo their difficulty(toy boy-by the way very old school route). Parthian Shot looks like it still needs a good ascent to me(better or perfect) and is it really a hard route when you consider something like Shaune Miles route Captain Fantastic? Is Grit stone especially the shorter type a bit overhyped?Would a route like Ugly in North Wales take much longer for some one to do than the Promise?  Is the over hyping of routes a bit over the top, and making a mockery of british climbing.
I am astounded by the bouldering standards in Britain but am dismayed that there seems to be ony one 9a climber and only a few (couple )8c+ climbers. Is the problem lack of money, lack of desire, lasyness, fashion, an imbalance of full rock craft skills. Are the mags and media short changing you, or are you actually helping.E grades were screwed up in my day, but that was more than 20 years ago, no one has sorted the wierd inflation some routes have had. If you give the Promise even E8 with a pad what would you give an Alain Robert solo of a Fr 8b which is higher. I am interested in your opinion. My opinion is that of all the types of climbing its only in Bouldering that the brits doing Ok. Mclure is the shining and only exception to the dearth of sport climbers,and as for Alpinists I wont even comment. Yours Stevie.

[dave]

I don't think the Promise got a "thrashing", some guys (wads) just found an easier sequence than the FA. Its not a crime to miss the easiest beta. The height of the route doesn't enter into is. If alain robert fell off soloing a 40m 8b then he'd be just as dead as if james had fallen off a 7m E10 into a bad landing.

[Fiend]

Good topic.

0:02 off the top of my head:

Were these recent thrashings the Promise got significant or were they about time? Was the route over graded?

Thrashings?? Hmmm. Overgraded?? A bit. Look at it this way, a grade is estimated and then altered later on. In this case there's a lot of factors that have affected the grade:
1. Natural vagueness/variation in grade estimates.
2. Natural vagueness of Americans not being totally au fait with UK grading.
3. Easier sequence used by Kevin J
4. Americans trusted the slider, Keenus didn't.
5. Americans used a couple of pads, Keenus didn't.
Given all those factors it's not at all surprising that the initial estimate get re-evaluated.

Should you use pads on routes and then poo poo their difficulty(toy boy-by the way very old school route).

I think Ned and Dan are being tongue-in-cheek with their poo-pooing. But yes a stack of pads changes things and yes that is the new style coming forth, but I don't see that as any problem.

Parthian Shot looks like it still needs a good ascent to me(better or perfect)

It's there for the taking indeed. Can't be that we're getting that much of a thrashing if it took Kevin J several attempts and many falls...

and is it really a hard route when you consider something like Shaune Miles route Captain Fantastic?

See above. Hard enough that Kevin J didn't piss it. Obviously gets more attention than CF because it's more famous.

Is Grit stone especially the shorter type a bit overhyped?

Overhyped in difficulty or in quality?? I think the difficulty of many routes is changing with the padpoint ascents but I don't see any mystery there. These routes were hard before (tricky technical climbing, no gear, bad landings) and now a new protection form comes along that makes them easier. Just like many previous protection improvements. So they're now easier....sobeit.

Would a route like Ugly in North Wales take much longer for some one to do than the Promise?

I don't know but it should definitely be getting more attention!!

Is the over hyping of routes a bit over the top, and making a mockery of british climbing.

Maybe it is a bit over-hyped but I think that's just a residue from the Hard Grit era when these things were soloed not highballed and were actually hard. Maybe grit will be re-viewed not as a heinously hard speciality rock type but as a fantasticly good highball arena for many routes.

I am astounded by the bouldering standards in Britain but am dismayed that there seems to be ony one 9a climber and only a few (couple )8c+ climbers.

That would be one multiple 9a+ climber. And a few more 8c+/9a climbers, albeit some of whom aren't so active.

Is the problem lack of money, lack of desire, lasyness, fashion, an imbalance of full rock craft skills.

The problem is weather, weather, weather and weather. That and lack of sponsorship (obviously) and lack of decent sport climbing here. This isn't the south of france or Catalunya. There's a limited amount of sport rock here, most of it is ugly, polished and seeping. There's a limited season and limited routes.

UK bouldering on the other hand is significantly better than UK sport climbing - I'd put the totality of Pennine grit as world class, top 5 in the world venues.

Are the mags and media short changing you, or are you actually helping.

I don't know. They seem to be doing a pretty good and enthusiastic job of promoting UK climbing.

E grades were screwed up in my day, but that was more than 20 years ago, no one has sorted the wierd inflation some routes have had.

I don't think they're that screwed up, the system makes sense and generally people keep it in check. Just because an American did it in this case isn't that significant. The main problem is you lot screwing up tech grades...

If you give the Promise even E8 with a pad what would you give an Alain Robert solo of a Fr 8b which is higher.

Depends on the nature of the 8b, the landing, and how secure or otherwise it is. Maybe it would be quite a hard E-grade. But also bear in mind that AR is a total solo specialist. But so it's harder....okay so AR soloed an E10 equivalent....and??

I am interested in your opinion. My opinion is that of all the types of climbing its only in Bouldering that the brits doing Ok.

Errr what about trad?? Forget the Promise for a mo (why do people need to get hung up on one route that had it's grade tweaked for obvious reasons??). One of the world's very best trad climbers came over here to try Rhapsody. It took him a damn long time, and I get the impression it was ranked up there equal with the other hardest trad routes in the world. Since then, in just a few months, two more trad routes have gone up that are both meant to be significantly harder than Rhapsody - is that not world class??

As for sport we may not have the numbers but given our shitty climate and shitty lime etc etc, having several 9a+s is not that bad is it. There's a few 9bs in the world and 9a+ is definitely world class.

I think we can do better, yes. I think fashion plays a role, yes. I think that weather and resources play a much bigger role and we have to live with that. Is it pissing down with you at the moment?? Cos it is this weekend...

I have a question in return though: Does it matter?? We have a fantastic variety of rock and a fantastic variety of rock climbing apart from big walls. Is the status of how hard we climb and how many hard routes we have that important??

[stevie haston]

thanks Fiend, I liked your reply,here some from me.
Firstly its very sunny, super blue, very good friction day here, I take your point about the weather in brit land. But surely the hard work of climbing is on the boards and putting the training in.
I personally thought the rhapsody fall was over hyped in the news, I have taken much worse falls, I cant speak for the difficulty, it looks very hard.   
Sorry about not saying 9a+ as regards Mc clure, I like his routes. As for Trotter being a great trad climber, Mc Clure proved better, and probably would not regard himself as the best (overly modest). Britain has great climbing no doubt but so have many countries, and great climbing traditions also, its just the banging on about stuff that seems a bit quiffie. With the fantastic bouldering ability that some people have surely we could just hope for a little more thats all. What about routes like Wogu, Salathea hasnt had a brit ascent. As for the tongue in cheek bit fine, just think Rons ascent was better or purer or bolder (choose your own words). A little tongue in cheek bit from me now, where do the brits come in the bouldering comps and in the leading comps, we have had very few decent placements. Finnaly I thought of the route Ugly as its firstly hard, second fairly long and very intimidating, yet well protected and uses many forms of rockcraft, its not just pulling up on a crimp. Anyway good luck with the weather, Stevie.

[katy]

British weather sucks, yet another week of shit weather here in wales. if your lucky  and can afford the petrol then you might make a weather window. if not.....
Mags have to promote climbing because the BMC can't. the teams struggle here because few are supported fully to train. most the girls on the team have a full time job and probably a shit load of responsibilities.
if anyone is in my situation then walls are expensive, boots are expensive, so's petrol and the cost of living. i'd love to be a top class climber but no way in hell am i or most people in this country going to be able to take a significant amount of time off work and large sum of money to travel to spain, with a belayer they can trust to do hard routes.

britain may become a quiet little backwater of climbing.....i'm blaming the weather

[SA Chris]

All good words Fiend apart from the pads bit.

Is Grit stone especially the shorter type a bit overhyped?

Overhyped in difficulty or in quality?? I think the difficulty of many routes is changing with the padpoint ascents but I don't see any mystery there. These routes were hard before (tricky technical climbing, no gear, bad landings) and now a new protection form comes along that makes them easier. Just like many previous protection improvements. So they're now easier....sobeit.

They may make the routes easier to do, but they are definitely not any easier from an actual climbing point of view, just safer.

[Fiend]

katy: Word. And the one thing you can fit in most easily with those constraints.....bouldering.

I take your point about the weather in brit land. But surely the hard work of climbing is on the boards and putting the training in.

Yeah that is a fair point, and perhaps the real question:

Why aren't British climbers getting brutally strong and indoor-wall-route-fit inside and then going out and putting up 9bs and more E11s in the brief weather windows we get??

I think there are some answers: Firstly it's much less inspiring being on wood and plastic all the time. Some people can do it to a level where they can compensate for lack of outside mileage to get good enough results, but not everyone. If your training was Siurana every weekend instead of The Foundry 3 nights a week one would probably be putting more effort in and in a better spirit. Secondly as good as indoors is for getting strong, I don't think it trains enough to get fully good outside - particularly for longer sport and trad. Again if people here could train on relevant stuff i.e. routes outside, we might get better at routes outside. As it is, training indoors gets us strong, most applicable for bouldering, so we do well in bouldering.

Britain has great climbing no doubt but so have many countries, and great climbing traditions also, its just the banging on about stuff that seems a bit quiffie.

Well I think that's just the changing times especially with the gritstone. Gritstone's perculiar nature makes it very susceptible to being made a lot safer/easier with bouldering mats, and is now fitting into the highball culture. Johnny Foreigner is coming over here with a stack of pads and the highball attitude, and yes grit is no longer as special and no longer as hard. But I don't see JF crushing loads of properly long trad routes. The Americans might have downgraded The Promise E8/10 with a couple of pads but the Belgians got spat off on-sighting Strawberries E6/7.
Grit has probably had it's time in terms of pure difficulty and danger, but I think it's still ranked up there in terms of quality anyway...

A little tongue in cheek bit from me now, where do the brits come in the bouldering comps and in the leading comps, we have had very few decent placements.

We do rubbish AFAIK, especially for a nation that has to spend too much time inside!! Issue - sponsorship and climbing culture, still a nation where climbing is a maverick concept for beardy weirdoes. It's definitely breaking free of that now with the current indoor wall generation so maybe there will be some good results in the future....if the motivation and support is there.

Finnaly I thought of the route Ugly as its firstly hard, second fairly long and very intimidating, yet well protected and uses many forms of rockcraft, its not just pulling up on a crimp.

There's a lot of stuff like that it would be funny to see people get on....a good challenge

Chris: Sorry, though it would have been obvious I meant overall i.e. adjectival difficulty.

[Bonjoy]

To a degree when it comes to grit route I think the E grade system means that dangerous routes make the news in a bigger way than hard routes.
For instance Parthian Shot may be E9, but it’s easier than a fair few E7/8s such as Captain Invincible(not Fantastic!), Fagus Sylvatica, Superstition, Screaming Dream, Mother Of  Pearl, Little Women.
For my money there is too much emphasis on big danger rather than big difficulty, which is no surprise when one gets a big news E number and one doesn’t. Perhaps this is another argument for using something other than E grades (even though I argued for them in the other thread). I guess the use of pads (padpoint is a crap term as it suggests pre-practice, rather than ground-up) helps to flag up the true difficulty of grit routes as the people doing it tend to describe the ascents in bouldering grades.

Lastly lets not forget that the standard is to a large degree dictated by the medium. The UK has a very limited amount of potential for hard sport routes. Given it’s tendency to seep I think it’s a miracle (and one very determined and amazing climber) we have 9a+ here at all.
On the grit the gaps are few and far between. Finding lines of the next grade up is almost as hard as doing the climbing! As the rock is fairly vertical, most remaining lines tend to turn out either too blank to climb or no harder than the current hardest routes.

[Stu Littlefair]

Stevie,

it's an interesting question. I don't really know enough to comment on relative standards in trad climbing etc, but I can comment on the lack (or perceived lack) of top-end sport climbers.

There are many factors for this, motivation, the weather, the lack of rock, the style of climbing, the harsh grades. They all play a part.

Motivation: many folk are just not that bothered, so they won't train endurance, etc. They don't spend time at sport crags.

Weather: maybe the Uk climbers can get strong at the wall, but if the crags are dry for a couple of months a year, what do you expect them to acheive in that time, plus a couple of weeks abroad?

Lack of rock: see motivation.

Climbing style and harsh grades: the british routes are gnarly. They have nasty, conditions-dependent cruxes and are harsh for the grade compared to the continent (on average by about half a grade). Most UK sports climbers have ticked as hard abroad on short trips as they've managed in the UK on their local crags. Go figure? Then you've got people like Markus Bock getting his ass kicked on Evolution, and Iker Pou not doing Mecca, and what did Dave Graham actually tick at the Tor?

So in summary, I think UK climbers are not motivated to obtain the sport prowess we'd regard as world class, but various factors such as conditions etc., conspire to mean that most UK climbers are half a grade to a grade better than their tick-list would suggest, if you see what I mean.

[Kingy]

 

Didn't some foreign beast get spanked on Revelations not so long ago? I'm sure Ru could furnish us with details 

[Fiend]

About climbing culture and sport motivation vs. trad motivation and traditions etc etc...

Does anyone remember that OTE front cover from a few years back with Bransbubble on the front cover on some new E8 on the Scottish Islands?? Pumped, gurning, gripped, proper old skool helmet on, old skool scruffy clothes, grey rock, grey weather, out pioneering in the arse end of some windswept Scottish nowhere - I thought it was brilliant. Showed all the uncoolness of proper British trad in all it's glory.

But, compare that to some typical Euro-lime scene, overhanging pocketed jug pulling, nice shiney bolts, evening sun blazing on some tanned hunk or hunkette, just one of many F8cs on a cliff of 8cs where it's sunny 364 days a year and there's a hundred locals who can burn you off and they're just the chicks....all the glamour and the glitz....

We still don't have that vibe yet of climbing being cool, and who knows whether we as a culture want it....?

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah the weather certainly plays a part in that. Even at a bouldering (rather than trad) level the attitude of getting out there in shite weather, hoping that something will be dry against all the odds. Drying holds with rags, getting covered in mud when you fall off. The fact that you've had a go rather than just going to the wall and it's a good feeling to have tried. It's a world away from the sport climbing idyll but it's part of what most of us love about climbing. I'm not sure what effect this has on us getting good but it certainly reduces the "coolness" factor you describe.

[slackline]

About climbing culture and sport motivation vs. trad motivation and traditions etc etc...

Does anyone remember that OTE front cover from a few years back with Bransbubble on the front cover on some new E8 on the Scottish Islands?? Pumped, gurning, gripped, proper old skool helmet on, old skool scruffy clothes, grey rock, grey weather, out pioneering in the arse end of some windswept Scottish nowhere - I thought it was brilliant. Showed all the uncoolness of proper British trad in all it's glory.

But, compare that to some typical Euro-lime scene, overhanging pocketed jug pulling, nice shiney bolts, evening sun blazing on some tanned hunk or hunkette, just one of many F8cs on a cliff of 8cs where it's sunny 364 days a year and there's a hundred locals who can burn you off and they're just the chicks....all the glamour and the glitz....

Yep I remeber that particular issue.  An excellent report it was topo.  I find it far more inspiring than pics of people pulling on steep limestone, but thats because its more relevant to me (hardly ever clip bolts, mainly 'cause I'm weeeaaaak), but importantly...

We still don't have that vibe yet of climbing being cool, and who knows whether we I as an culture individual want it....?

Theres room for both images though, those who want to be "cool" will do so, those who want to go to the arse end of some windswept Scottish nowhere will do so.  Its about what individuals want, not what a culture want.  After all 'culture' doesn't have a mind to decide what it wants, its the individuals who constitute it who decide for themselves (albeit some of whom will be heavily influenced by the media, btw is there anyone here who works in marketing, kill yourselves, you are satans little spawn...).  I'm sure this is what you meant thoug 

Why do things get polarised into basically Bad (shit) or Good (not shit)?  Theres a whole spectrum of abilities, and this is ultimately asking where do people who were born/reside in one part of the world fit in on that scale, and is it higher than some arbitrary and continually moving level of goodness?

I'm squarely with Mr at work (if I've remembered correctly) and climb because I enjoy it, not because I aspire to be good (which is just as well  )

[Fiend]

Theres room for both images though, those who want to be "cool" will do so, those who want to go to the arse end of some windswept Scottish nowhere will do so.  Its about what individuals want, not what a culture want.  After all 'culture' doesn't have a mind to decide what it wants, its the individuals who constitute it who decide for themselves (albeit some of whom will be heavily influenced by the media, btw is there anyone here who works in marketing, kill yourselves, you are satans little spawn...).  I'm sure this is what you meant thoug 

No it's not the point I was making. I was making a point about the general climbing culture, with this idea in mind: The Europeans and Americans seem to have a culture where climbing is cool, popular, promoted, and glamorous. Promoted in schools, big in media, more sponsorship, plentiful competitions, pushing standards is de-rigeur. This enables standards in sport climbing in particular to get pushed more easily - people are more encouraged that way. I think we have less of that culture in the UK and more of the hoary old adventure big yellow helmet culture. Less promotion, less sponsorship, less encouragement to progress and be a big rock star. So it's harder.

I personally prefer the latter culture but this isn't about my preferences, it's about what Stevie's saying about the sport - is Britain really any good?? If not why not?? And should it be made any good?? Or maybe it doesn't matter??

[slackline]

Theres room for both images though, those who want to be "cool" will do so, those who want to go to the arse end of some windswept Scottish nowhere will do so.  Its about what individuals want, not what a culture want.  After all 'culture' doesn't have a mind to decide what it wants, its the individuals who constitute it who decide for themselves (albeit some of whom will be heavily influenced by the media, btw is there anyone here who works in marketing, kill yourselves, you are satans little spawn...).  I'm sure this is what you meant thoug 

No it's not the point I was making. I was making a point about the general climbing culture, with this idea in mind: The Europeans and Americans seem to have a culture where climbing is cool, popular, promoted, and glamorous. Promoted in schools, big in media, more sponsorship, plentiful competitions, pushing standards is de-rigeur. This enables standards in sport climbing in particular to get pushed more easily - people are more encouraged that way. I think we have less of that culture in the UK and more of the hoary old adventure big yellow helmet culture. Less promotion, less sponsorship, less encouragement to progress and be a big rock star. So it's harder.

Apologies Fiendy, my mis-interpretation, wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, although I stand by my assertion that a culture can't desire to be a certain way, its something thats is derived from the desires of individuals within  (a subset of) society.  Those with similar desires/aims will tend to socialise together to re-inforce that image.

[Bonjoy]

No it's not the point I was making. I was making a point about the general climbing culture, with this idea in mind: The Europeans and Americans seem to have a culture where climbing is cool, popular, promoted, and glamorous. Promoted in schools, big in media, more sponsorship, plentiful competitions, pushing standards is de-rigeur. This enables standards in sport climbing in particular to get pushed more easily - people are more encouraged that way. I think we have less of that culture in the UK and more of the hoary old adventure big yellow helmet culture. Less promotion, less sponsorship, less encouragement to progress and be a big rock star. So it's harder.

Where is this Europe of which you speak? Europe is a big place made of lots of very different countries whose styles of climbing and attitude towards it are many and various. Just because English people are mostly only interested in a certain style (sunny limestone with bolts) doesn’t mean that this is all or even most of what the locals do. Every country I’ve been to there has a load of trad/adventure climbing, it’s just that Rockfax don’t write guide to these crags.
Assuming Spain typifies this stereotype you’re constructing, I’d have to disagree with the assessment. Climbing is not highly regarded by the general media or the public, in fact they seem to be viewed as the lowest of the low. I can’t imagine it’s encouraged at school to even the extent it is here. The guidebooks are rubbish, presumably because they don’t have a strong national body promoting the sport and because there is little money in it. Are dogs, mullets and dreadlocks cool/glamorous, that’s the main scene I came across? Most climbers I met seemed much more skint than the average climber here. I met many strong climbers, none were paid to climb. I didn’t see any evidence of  competitions at all. The sport climbers are good because they have good crags and nice weather.

[Fiend]

I meant France and America as well. It's just my perception from the media and just trying to find some reasons behind the issues Stevie is raising. As for the type of climbing I do think Europe has a much higher proportion of sport climbing than we do??

[slackline]

As for the type of climbing I do think Europe has a much higher proportion of sport climbing than we do??

Surely thats simply a function of the type of rock i.e. more limestone, although admittedly other types of rock do get bolted.

[220bpm]

About climbing culture and sport motivation vs. trad motivation and traditions etc etc...

Does anyone remember that OTE front cover from a few years back with Bransbubble on the front cover on some new E8 on the Scottish Islands?? Pumped, gurning, gripped, proper old skool helmet on, old skool scruffy clothes, grey rock, grey weather, out pioneering in the arse end of some windswept Scottish nowhere - I thought it was brilliant. Showed all the uncoolness of proper British trad in all it's glory.

Indeed, twas a classic of its kind. I think it was on the Sgurr of Eigg, right up the nose freeing an old aid line.

Hardcore 

We do pretty well on this island, working with what we have. Keep the faith.

[stevie haston]

Kingy, the  etranger guy who got spanked on Revelations, you obviously dont mean the sweet Antoin.e;;;
Bonjoy good points about the dangerous grit routes getting perhaps to much press, but half of them arnt even dangerous, and with real 9a ability alot of the danger would evaporate.
Stu I know the lime is really hard, but its pretty hard (stiffly graded ) in other places to. I really like the big hard sport routes and some how think of them as the touch stone of climbing, they arnt dangerous, they arnt loose, they just require fitness, power, skill and determination, they are in short for everybody. Since the retirement of Ben I have always been ashamed of Brits on bolts, thank god for steve. I shout at my mates in wales to get serious, with their bouldering ability, 8c+/ 9a might be on the cards fairly quickly, you probably know people all over britain who might do well, its such a shame. Messing around on sitdown starts when you could swagger to the bottom of the Rambla and have a chance of posting it to mummy is short changing yourself.
Katy, I wanted to go to a wall in britain the other day and didnt, to expensive for me. The british team still seem to produce some good younguns and then something goes wrong, inspiration , hard training and reward would seem to be called for.
To everybody, years ago a couple of the french team (when they were tops) were joking with me, and said its easy to be strong in britain cos the weather is shit. Chabot (13 international titles) came from Rheims hardly good weather and a really long way from any climbing apart from font. If only Malc had won, instead of being nobbled  by that Italian ref, maybe we would be more interested in winning. Stevie

[Kingy]

Kingy, the  etranger guy who got spanked on Revelations, you obviously dont mean the sweet Antoin.e;;;

Oh no there was another wad, who shall remain nameless cos I have forgotten who he is  , who left empty handed relatively recently. Just proving what a tricky tick for 8a+, ahem....8b, this climb is. 

[Bonjoy]

  I hope this puts an end to people giving Rev 8a+, it's clearly 8b.

[Kingy]

  I hope this puts an end to people giving Rev 8a+, it's clearly 8b.

Only if Magnetic gets 8a+.... 

[Three Nine]

Stu I know the lime is really hard, but its pretty hard (stiffly graded ) in other places to. I really like the big hard sport routes and some how think of them as the touch stone of climbing, they arnt dangerous, they arnt loose, they just require fitness, power, skill and determination, they are in short for everybody. Since the retirement of Ben I have always been ashamed of Brits on bolts, thank god for steve. I shout at my mates in wales to get serious, with their bouldering ability, 8c+/ 9a might be on the cards fairly quickly, you probably know people all over britain who might do well, its such a shame. Messing around on sitdown starts when you could swagger to the bottom of the Rambla and have a chance of posting it to mummy is short changing yourself.

i think this is a bit silly. i personally would rather do la rambla than one of gaskins hard unrepeated sit starts, but it has no greater value really. you seem to have this idea that people should be doing all sorts of things, but really if people are excited about sit down starts on scrappy bits of rock, or being strong for its own sake, or training for the sake of training, then that's really up to them. there's nothing noble about climbing as far as i can see, sticking your neck out on something isn't done for the benefit of british climbing, but for your own personal satisfaction. similarly hard redpointing (at any grade - i mean hard for a particular individual) is always really hard work and there's nothing that says that people should be doing it. i generally clip bolts and am often being told that i should be onsighting e6s, because i've onsighted at a certain grade on sports, but what if i just dont want to. outside of comps why should people care if the frenchies are better than us at something?

[T_B]

I can think of one talented Brit youngster - Tom Bolger - who has gone to live in Spain cos the weather's so sh*t here and there aren't many F8bs for him to try and on-sight. Britain has always been very insular looking so I suspect he's the exception and most yoofs will maintain their focus on the sit down starts.