[Ru]

Stu I know the lime is really hard, but its pretty hard (stiffly graded ) in other places to.

The lime in this country isn't just stiffly graded, it's also conditions dependent, awkward, tweaky and wet 60% of the year. Worse still, the wet periods often coincide with the good conditions.

[slackline]

Worse still, the wet periods often coincide with the good conditions.

Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron to me!

[stevie haston]

hello 39, if you dont want to fine, if you are happy fine. I just  gave some thoughts and opinions. If people are happy doing little things fine, however it strikes me  that  with not an impossible amount of work we could have many more good sports climbers. When I see a good boulderer putting alot of effort pulling on condition dependent rock in damp air in damp britain on an ugly low boulder, I personaly wish they were doing something better, no big deal. France is having less luck with their competiters(less money), in  Italy the sport climbing scene is on the decline( no money apparently). The original thread is (was) about wether standards are on the decline or instep with bouldering standards. I am not trying to piss anybody off. Yes and maybe I am wierd, my pride is somehow offended that no brits have done Salathea (or that I cant spell), maybe I,ll see a shrink. Have any of you been to Oliana, a crag in spain, I,ll try and put a few photos up for you, makes me wish I could climb. regards Stevie.Ps re revelations does that mean Squak was an 8b climber, well done.

[Fiend]

I shout at my mates in wales to get serious, with their bouldering ability, 8c+/ 9a might be on the cards fairly quickly, you probably know people all over britain who might do well, its such a shame. Messing around on sitdown starts when you could swagger to the bottom of the Rambla and have a chance of posting it to mummy is short changing yourself.

The main point being that the sitdown starts are there in Wales and La Rambla errrr....isn't. And what can the wads do to train for the Rambla so they can go over and crush it?? UK Limestone of course....thus see Ru's post a few up.

[Percy B]

Revelations can only be 8a+ cos Squawk did it, and Monumental Armblaster can only be 8a+ cos Vickers flashed it, and so on and so on! One of the things I disliked about the old Peak scene - if you weren't in with the in crowd you couldn't possibly be any good...

Anyway, I think (generalising grossly) that us Brits are in serious danger of getting left behind as regards the top standards in rock climbing. Certainly the current Yanky grit rampage proves the point that if you can boulder Font 8b+ and you have big enough knackers, then most of the 'Hard Grit' era testpieces are no longer a big deal - on-sightable, ground-upable, or laughably overgraded (KJ's assessment of End of the affair - E6?!?! and probably quite right too!)
The standards of climbing I see from the top climbers in the world cup comps I set for is quite simply astronomical, and we are slowly letting the cutting edge slip away from us. This is most obvious in difficulty comps, where there is nobody in the UK who could get close at the moment (not even Ste Mac, I'm afraid). To get into a final at world cup level these days you have to able to on-sight 8b+, and the winners are capable of on-sighting 8c+. There ain't any Brits operating at this level as far as I'm aware at the moment. All is not lost, but I can sense a stagnation of standards due to lack of motivation, inspiration and remuneration by those at the cutting edge of the sport, and I hope that we can get a grip again before its too late.
In order for a Brit to hit the headlines in foreign mags nowadays we either have to climb stupidly dangerous hard trad routes (only realy James P and Dave Mc operating at this level though) or its Steve Mac winning another Roctrip comp by climbing 20 8a+'s in an hour.... We don't really have any other sport climbers or boulderers making waves overseas from their new hard problems or routes (apart from Ty, but he's buggered off and left the UK for the good life)! I'm sure that maybe there are some young spunkers about to burst onto the international scene, but I am often hopelessly optemistic too.
I'd volunteer to push British standards forward myself, but I'm quite busy and I've got a note from my Mum explaining why I can't do standard raising this year due to a nasty verucca...

[slackline]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what would having world-class, cutting edge British climbers actually achieve?

Beyond some sort of tribalistic sense of national pride (which personally I don't subscibe to, we're all human beings after all) what would be different if there were  top-end brit climbers?

They'd be able to climb hard and have the sponsorship they need, making it a potentially viable "career choice" for a few youngsters?

Entice Johnny  Foreigner over to try their latest test-piece, raising the "profile of UK climbing" in the eyes of foreigners which in turn would lead to more sponsorship and more of the above?

Personally I find it inspiring when someone climbs something hard anywhere in the world, irrespective of their nationality or where the climb is located.  Why try and turn achievements into an "Us (Brits) v's them/the rest of the world" type enquiry, what is the point of this line of questioning?  Aren't you yourself an ex-pat living abroad (for a number of years) Stevie?  Your achievements are outstanding for what you have done, not the country you were born in or you happened to done your climbs in (to my mind at least).

[stevie haston]

hello slackline, I am not really at all nationalistic ,am fairly tribal though. I surport France in rugby, cos I much prefer their game and, plus I could get seriously mangled around here by cheering for the enemy. What would it achieve having top climbers from britain, actually alot. Percy B said it very well in his post and had more balls than me. The kids who come up, wouldnt give up. Some people would get enough money to live and climb their dreams, and alot more people who I know who live off climbing would also benifit, so yes  their is actually something to be said for it. Percy Bs post is worth reading and maybe some of it should be written in big letters in a mag. If you see one of the greats climbing now, you might realize, that yes they might be able to climb Fr 9b+, and have a laugh on it to. They can boulder but use it as a tool. 
Fiend there are at least two lads in wales who could do the Rambla, they have no excuses, they have the facilities but they lac the will. Worse they would have to work a little, much easier to go bouldering. Nice one Percy owe you a pint Stevie.

[Bonjoy]

As stated by a few on here it seems the only way for a Brit to get truly world class is to live abroad (eg Tyler). So what does that prove? Nothing more than what we already know, that a motivated climber will flourish where the weather and rock are conducive, i.e. not Britain. Ok, you could train to do the Rambla in the UK, it would be hard and rather pointlessly dull, why not move to Spain for a bit instead, which would be more effective and more fun.
Besides, what is national pride all about anyway? Proof that British genes are the best? Proof that British climbing is the best/hardest? Proof that the British try hardest? We have the same genes as everyone else, we don’t have better/harder climbing than the rest of the world and we don’t try any harder than anywhere else, why should we be top of the pile?
The one thing we could be good at is comps I guess. Unfortunately most Brit climbers (myself included) are largely disinterested in comps, this can’t help motivate the potential talent.

[Joepicalli]

Parthian Shot looks like it still needs a good ascent to me(better or perfect) and is it really a hard route when you consider something like Shaune Miles route Captain Fantastic?

When you say it needs a good ascent I would have thought that Neil Bentley's effort (placing the gear on the lead after practicing the route) counts as a "good" ascent, not a "perfect" one but a workperson like work-and-send effort.

[travs]

Rock climbing is no different from any other sport in that any given country and group of individuals cannot be at the top of a given sport for ever. It is the nature of each group training on their own and not in one mass group that causes countries to leap frog each other in 'world dominance'. Parallels are easily drawn from other sports such as football, rugby, tennis and indeed cycling. Cycling is quite interesting in that team GB are currently dominating the world in track events at all competitions including the Olympics, World Champoinships and the World Cup tour. Now this wasn't always the case nor will it be the case in say 5 years time but does this make the other cyclists competing shite? Of course it doesn't. I bet they train just as hard the GB  cyclists but training is only one facet of the overall package. And so we have GB rock climbers, there was a time where we enjoyed dominance in both competitions and rock routes with the likes of Nadin and Moffet leading from the front but that time passed and now the Spanish and Americans are pushing standards forward but it doesn't make everybody else shite and I suspect in 5 years time it will be the turn of another coutry to be the star performers. I certainly wouldn't assume it won't be GB climbers and instead of telling all our talented climbers thet they are shite we should instead be looking at how the Spanish got to where they are so that we can get to that point ourselves and then move on to another level - just as the GB cyclists did!

[Jaspersharpe]

Once again common sense from Mr T.

[Kingy]

This discussion brings to mind a period in US climbing history in the early 90's when the American males were performed abyssmally on the international stage, when Jibe came over and waltzed up Just Do it at a time when no yank had yet climbed 8c. Plus there was only Jim Karn challenging in the comps. It prompted Dave Pegg to write an article in Climbing Mag called "Why do we Suck" regarding American male climbing. Then 7 years down the track, Sharma started dominating international climbing and Graham showed up to back him up. This was quite a turn around and I agree with Travs that these things go in cycles, no need for sackcloth and ashes in the low periods.

[dave]

Once again common sense from Mr T.

i suspected the main problem is british climbers "ain't gettin on no plane, fool".

[slackline]

Thanks for the reply Stevie.

I had read Percy's post and have re-read it again, and I've acknowledged that climbing hard leads to sponsorship and would make it viable for some as a career.  But take out any reference to Brits or foreigners from Percy's post and it simply reads that there is a normal distribution of climbers ability and if you impose nationality on that then the brits aren't in the tail end.  Theres nothing unusual or surprising about this, its going to change all the time.  A couple of decades ago there will have been brits in that very tail end (viz. Moffatt, Moon, Nadin, Vickers all doing well in comps and climbing hard).  Give it a few years and things might have shifted.  Its all swings and roundabouts and will continually change.

It doesn't stop people climbing and living in the UK from being inspired by the achievements of others who climb and live in other countries.  Perhaps its down to the UK's climbing media focusing mainly on UK climbing/climbers, perhaps more column inches should be given to the scene in other countries in the UK press so that up and coming youngsters can see whats going on at the top end, be inspired, not give up, train and climb harder, etc. etc..  For all their "sins" UKC do seem to have a lot of reports about happenings in other countries (although perhaps a bit biased to the US).

Perhaps the recent attention some UK test-pieces have had (Trotter coming over to climb Rhapsody; current maelstrom of US wads crushing on the Grit) is a reflection of this in their countries.  UK climbs and climbing has been getting more exposure in their press, so they've decided to come and check it out?  Reverse the situation and some of the top-end boulderers here might head abroad and we'd hear about them crushing problems as Jerry did years ago.

[slackline]

Beaten to it by Travs.

Once again common sense from Mr T.

i suspected the main problem is british climbers "ain't gettin on no plane, fool".

 

[Fiend]

What Bonjoy Travs and Dave said. Good posts.

[stevie haston]

Its raining, snowing. So you lot basically are saying, yep the brits are very poor at comps but it doesnt matter, because we dont have the weather or the facilities.  And there is no need to put on the sack cloth. You are also saying yep some of our trad routes are over graded and over hyped but that doesnt matter either, because the guys who have recently done them are really good. Sport climbing,  yep we are adrift, you seem to say. We are alright at bouldering, as we have how many 8c boulderers? I have realized that I seem to have a completly out of fashion embarassment at our low standing, and I am trying to put that down to the indoctrination I suffered at school and my extreme age. Thanks for taking part in a polite and interesting thread. ps.Well done Adam on Big bus stop, and Pete on Pool. Stevie

[Bonjoy]

Perhaps people on here feel that the upper level of British climbing is well and truly out of their hands, so faced with the choice of gnashing and wailling, or accepting it with aplomb, they opt for the less painful option.

[travs]

No I think what we are saying is... Take the 100m, at the moment the 2 best sprinters in the world are Jamaican and they are miles ahead of everybody else. Our best sprinters are clocking bang on 10sec whilst the Jamaicans are running 9.74, so what does that tell us? Does it mean the GB sprinters are shite? Does it mean the Jamaican sprinters train harder? Well the answer is probably no, what it means is that Jamaica currently happen to have the 2 most gifted sprinters the world has ever seen and in  5 years time we may well have some Americans or indeed GB atheletes who come along and so what the Jamaicans are doing now, which is raise the bar by a considerable level. It's very difficult to disseminate natural ability from hard graft but my suspision is that these American climbers are truly gifted and so the reality is that they will always be one step ahead of their peers no matter how much training everbody does, we will just have to wait for our own naturally gifted climbers to emerge.

[Fiend]

we will just have to wait for our own naturally gifted climbers to emerge.

....from their cellars, tear Lancashire lime bouldering to pieces, and the disappear again...

Hmmmm.

[cowboyhat]

What Travs said about cycles etc, we shall rise forth again! etc

Finance plays a huge part in this and the wider debate about E8-E12's and their relative difficulty.

The weather is shit, but conditions aren't perfect everywhere all the time, hence why Chris and Dave have been international hobo's for five years or so. Tyler and Daniel Woods are beginning to explore that idea too. What does this lifestyle require most?  Money. (I'm sure a read recently Fred Nicole has been doing this for little money but is reveared most here in the UK, What does that say?)

Look at Kevin Jorgs sponsors and his professional website. Despite grabbing headlines home and abroad Dave McLeod sells bespoke shortbread as a sideline!

The kids are alright.

[katy]

Katy, I wanted to go to a wall in britain the other day and didnt, to expensive for me. The british team still seem to produce some good younguns and then something goes wrong, inspiration , hard training and reward would seem to be called for.

if you have any suggestions for inspiration, there is a girl just started in wales who could be world class if she can stick with it.....

young kids growing into well rounded adults..., well ya get bored quick with training. when you have a bit more freedom you tend to get drunk than go to the wall, your not treated like an athlete, your body develops injurys which are mis-treated or not treated. why climb when it hurts?

then often the net and the wicked whispers mean you don't want to publicly try something for not being seen as lying, or someone saying that 'i did it when i was 6 with my eyes closed' and having your efforts belittled. if your not european champion or top of your game then its not a good effort. then where's the incentive to try? why try something if your going to get a public slating?

there's a lot of bull in british climbing. partly, coz if your not in the 'in' crowd then you won't be spoken about (except in derogative tones) and then we over-hype things we probably shouldn't....

[stevie haston]

hello katy, well you said alot didnt you. I whish I could help you in a concrete way but I cant. Some times climbing doesnt work out that well for any of us. Climbing has been the single most important thing at times for me and has got me throught some very dark patches, at the moment it gives me enormous joy, and I am not going to let go of that for any one or anything. Once along time ago a little girl who was 15 was climbing really well  and loved it, she had incredible potential and sometimes would out climb me. She was as good as another girl in France who later took many titles in comps, once  the  french girl took the leading and the bouldering title, the girl in wales didnot get the surport she needed, but she still loves climbing to this day, her name is Katie as well. You have to try hard at climbing just as you have to try very hard at living, in the end if you dont get the help you need, you have to dig a bit deeper. Anyway good luck and dont be too down, when I see youngsters climbing and trying hard it inspires me.  Oh and dont worry about being in the in crowd, I never have been.Stevie

[Moo]

excuse me while i fetch my tiny violin

[katy]

Hello Mr Haston,

Well to be honest everything i wrote was about other people, but i can see how ya might assume it was about me. yup i'm looking atthings from a girls point of view, but one talented friend had way too much pressure and a pretty serious injury which may never clear up.
and then, living in a tiny community its easy to feel like other peoples efforts aren't spoken about because they aren't in vogue, anyone heard of ioan doyle, dan mcmanus, or a 14year old lad called callum who onsighted a bunch of e6's this year?you weren't in vogue but you are incredibly outspoken and therefore get attention. maybe we need proper reporters in mags who write about everyone not just the guys they belay?

britain has talent which we waste