[slackline]

(also, to put things in perspective, what we generally don't hear about is when strong foreign climbers come over here and do preciscely fuck all. whihc can lead to a slightly skewed interpretation of foreign trad prowess compared to our own).

The 'ol publication bias problem.

[lagerstarfish]

Despite Nik's storm of derision and negativity, I myself am impressed by the performance of these visiting climbers.

[uptown]

I can appreciate how Brits don't make the best of skiers, but I'm a tad shocked that we aren't closer to the cutting edge of grit developments seeing as we own the rock...

I can see it now -
World cup downhill 2008
1st place - Mr Austria
2nd place - Mr Brit
3rd place - Mr Brit

The parallels are obvious. The best training for grit is obviously not grit. CJD dispels your main argument Dave.

[dave]

I don't see how Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease comes into it.

[T_B]

I don't know how I can make this any clearer...

So let's get this straight. You're very impressed, but you don't think that they have completely blown British climbing out of the water? 

[nik at work]

Did you all get together at The Works last night and collectively plan operation "piss take"?

P.S. Sorry for my previous negativity, I hope it hasn't reflected badly on the UK climbing scene as a whole...

[stevie haston]

I am still not very clear about British standards. Keep posting.
Grimmer, a few years ago a lad called Wolfe did some good things on grit he came, saw, got enthused and sent, E5/6 soloes on sight and a few hardish things(?) I am not really up to the date on stuff and the way the media and some climbers make mistakes it is hard to have a good understanding. With the grit, there is so much difference in the small things, like a bit of extra, knowledge, or a mat in the right place. You know I always thought that stuff like Mesuga would be soloed but think of a similarly graded route in scotland, the lakes or wales and you can see there is maybe the world of difference. I am sure we have climbers who are as good as the septics who recently graced our little edges , but these arnt really the best climbers in the world. If we have a climber as good as Honult at climbing cracks above 600 feet of rectum emptying void I surely havent been told his name. Steve Mac seems to be a world class climber and other than that I am not sure we have learnt very much. Stevie

[Bonjoy]

c.j.d – I’ve no wish to have some ‘who’s most old school’ willy waving contest. Suffice to say I’ve been climbing for over twenty years, mostly based in Sheffield but with long stints of foreign travel and plenty of time spent around the UK as a boulderer and roped climber.
You miss my point anyway. I was not questioning the diversity of your experience over the last ten years internationally. I was questioning your recent experience of the whole UK scene (you remember, the one you completely dismissed). I don’t recall seeing you spending loads of time around Sheffield and if you haven’t, how can you write it off, or any other area’s scene? I assume these only two potential superstars you are thinking of are the very best in the UK, rather than the best youngsters you see at your local crags and walls.

[grimer]

Yes Tobias Wolfe. He was an Elbesandstein climber, so used to soloing. He was crap at placing gear, and came a cropper falling off ray's Roof when his cam ropped. He flashed things like a peg-protected E7 at Millstone. Also - get this - fell off Parthian about eight times, each time getting a local climber, John Horscroft, to abseil in and place his gear in the flake. Bear in mind, this was before it was reclassified as bomber. That's a responsibility I wouldn't have fancied.

I think, as someone said, there probably are people quietly ticking away, Ian Vickers and people, but it strikes me that Britain suffers from having so few unclimbed inspiring lines.

Imagine how exciting it must be to think you could free a new route on El cap?

[SA Chris]

For unclimbed inspiring lines look north and west. There are tons.

[TomP]

I can't really be arsed to get fully into this topic but I think we have a great British scene. I don't know much about routes but watching Neil Dickson on sighting E8 etc was fucking impressive in On Sight. There are plenty of very good traditionalists around who keep a low profile.
I think it is only fair to comment on scenes that you are involved in. You may get drips and drabs on info from media and websites but people send impressive things quite often and it just stays amongst friends. Dismissing the British scene due to some American visitors is ludicrous!

Our bouldering standards are pretty impressive too. The 8c boulderers in the world dedicate their whole lives to it. I read it ealier but the point that we have so few professional climbers is very important. We do pretty well over here as I can't think of a single full-time boulderer and some hard shit gets done. We do have some world class ones here. To name a few: Andy Earl, Malc, Gareth, Matt Birch and (I know he likes to keep a low profile) but Mickey Paige sounds like the real deal too. The list of 8b boulderer is also impressive to show the current standards here.

[Johnny Brown]

Nik, if you really want to piss on their chips you could pick the third member of team usa, look at his CV, and then ask why he got completely spanked.

[jwi]

Nik, if you really want to piss on their chips you could pick the third member of team usa, look at his CV, and then ask why he got completely spanked.

Cause he's from Boulder, probably the gayest place in the Universe?

[cofe]

Nik, if you really want to piss on their chips you could pick the third member of team usa, look at his CV, and then ask why he got completely spanked.

Cause he's from Boulder, probably the gayest place in the Universe?

that's a genius post.

[n_man]

That would explain why it has the highest number of single females in the States then. To think I only heard half the story...

[the little drummer girl]

Fucking aye.

Rich keeps forgetting to check whether I'm logged in when he posts.

I'm wondering how many more he's left under the guise of his hot girlfriend. It'll all go to shit when somebody tries to talk to me about climbing in real life.

[c.j.d.]

I’ve no wish to have some ‘who’s most old school’ willy waving contest

Fuck me Bonjoy, put it away!  I think you are missing my point.  I've no idea who you are, but I am not into having an argument, which I think you're after for some strange reason. 

If you are happy in the thought that the scene, both of climbers pushing the grades, and the scene being cool etc, feel free - thats your view, as mine is very much my personal view.

Adios.

[stevie haston]

So please take what I am going to say, calmly, its after all a discission. British standards are a drift, they are at sea, higgledy piggledy, we are behind in real terms and also the reporting on DVDs, mags, peoples web sites is totaly(a few exceptions) out of order. The groove was not even touted but stated as the hardest trad route in the world!!!! Its a safe bit of elegant grit. The Promise is, come on, what?  Eota was never thought to be bench mark E8. There are routes all over the country that are harder, wake up. When Neil dryer soloed the Untochables there werent reams of guff  about it (probably just as hard as doing Promise.) I feel conned except I guess I knew all the time, my own fault. To use mats for your own enjoyment is fine an dandy but are you really  doing the busness,  or am I confused. Steve Mac (probably best Uk climber) is two grades off the world onsighting leval ( not my estimation) , he took two days to red point an 8c which Sharma onsighted(?) after the lad had been working a much harder route, Humilda by the way is incredible and should be on every bodys hit list. Its also had 8 ascent Pod not 4. 13 year old pubescent boy child from Nice climbs basically the same tick list as Scotish alrounder Dave Mcleod (the alrounder who hasnt even climbed in the Alps and now saying Steve Mac didnt do Rapsody) Jee I am more than confused. Dont think for a second that I am being mean, I am really excited about climbing and not the slightest bit negative, but come one of britains supposed top climbers who doesnt know how to judge whether a pro piece is good or not, shit if I did stuff like that amount of over grading I would have been the laughing stock of Wales. I repeat I am not being mean , but if it looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck, and finnaly starts talking Duck, well it might be a Duck.  Good training to all, Stevie.

[dave]

we are behind in real terms

who's this "we" you keep refering to?

seems to me all you want to stir up here is some kinda of jingoistic feeling which for the most part in the UK just doesn't exist about the climbing here. people are psyched for whoever comes and climbs hard things. And if "we" are so far behind, why do the foreign climbers who are much better then Uk climbers not put some of their own routes (i.e. the true mark of a climber with vision and commitment) rather than just repeating stuff. Am I right in thinking the yanks tried equilibrium, and 8 year old route (and I presume bentley wasn't a full time paid climber at the time) and didn't do it? Also don't forget the same route (the promise) you seem to be using as fuel for this "everyone is better than british climbers" drum-banggin episode has just been ground-upped by 2 brits. that knocks the yanks ascent into a cocked hat really. so just how far behind are "we"?

I think the notion of trying to stir up controversy where it doesn't exist is wearing a little thin.

[SA Chris]

13 year old pubescent boy child from Nice climbs basically the same tick list as Scotish alrounder Dave Mcleod

Who is this kid btw? and where is this tick list we can compare to?

[Stu Littlefair]

At a guess it was Geoffray de Flaubergeges, or however his name is spelt. Regardless of who he is, the kid is a beast. Neil Mawson was flabbergasted by the casual way he would turn up at the crag, tick a 6c to get warm, onsight an 8a, tick an 8c, go home, repeat.

I was lucky enough to see Sharma on Humildes Pas Casa at Oliana two days ago. It was perfectly clear he had plenty of gas left in the tank whilst onsighting 8c. If you read the spanish blogs the last few days have seen countless ascents of 8c and harder at two crags alone.

From the above, it should be perfectly apparent to everyone that, when it comes to european sport climbing, british climbers are miles and miles and miles off the pace. Stevie shouldn't get a slagging, or be accused of drumming up controversy for stating the obvious. Basically, no british climbers have the stamina or power endurance to compare: consider that Steve is just out of touch with top standards and is absolutely miles clear of everyone else.

More interesting questions would be: are the british lagging behind at their own style of sport climbing (short, power endurance-type routes)? Does it have a limiting effect on british trad climbing? I think the answers to those questions are both yes, but not by as much as the euro sport grades lead you to believe, because we tend to have other assets as climbers, like strong heads (not me) and a relative excess of power (me). On the other hand, if Bransbubble had the stamina to onsight 8c, what could he manage at Range West?

The killer question is - does it matter? Again, I think yes. If we all want to improve at the climbing we do then surely we can learn from the fact that we are so far off the (sport climbing) pace, and look abroad to see what we can do to improve our standards...

[Jaspersharpe]

Have endless miles of amazing steep limestone crags and a fantasitc climate? 

To be fair there's always been a much higher average standard of sport climbing on the continent. 17 years ago there were countless unknown French lads climbing 8b when in this country there were maybe 25 (we worked it out once and I'm sure it was around that figure). I suppose the concern if there is any is that we now don't even have 25 people operating at 8c+ which would be a comparative level. This is probably because of the popularity of bouldering compared to sport climbing nowadays and for the major reason for that go to my first sentence.

[IanP]

Have endless miles of amazing steep limestone crags and a fantasitc climate? 

To be fair there's always been a much higher average standard of sport climbing on the continent. 17 years ago there were countless unknown French lads climbing 8b when in this country there were maybe 25 (we worked it out once and I'm sure it was around that figure). I suppose the concern if there is any is that we now don't even have 25 people operating at 8c+ which would be a comparative level. This is probably because of the popularity of bouldering compared to sport climbing nowadays and for the major reason for that go to my first sentence.

This could actually turn into an interesting and constructive debate if we're not careful!

But despite the weather and the relative lack of rock we do have a decent amount of excellent sport climbing in this country which during the summer (!) weather we seem to get can often be the only place to climb.  And compared with 15 / 20 years ago I'm sure there's load more punters ticking off 7c - 8a+ but this doesn't seem to have happend at the higher grades - it's still a pretty rare event to see 8b+ and above ticked by anyone other than Steve Mac (except Mecca maybe).  Maybe the bouldery nature of the harder routes is partly to blame but as someone who is one of those punters at Malham but who still considers font 7a hard I do find it strange that with all these people operating at font 8a/8b we don't see a lot more hard sport climbing done. 

[SA Chris]

At a guess it was Geoffray de Flaubergeges, or however his name is spelt. Regardless of who he is, the kid is a beast. Neil Mawson was flabbergasted by the casual way he would turn up at the crag, tick a 6c to get warm, onsight an 8a, tick an 8c, go home, repeat.

Cheers for the info Stu, I was just puzzled as to why steve was comparing this kid's sport climbing track record to Dave Mac's when from his post it is quite apparent that it is not DM's sport climbing abilities he is bothered about.

[stevie haston]

hello guys, please take what I said in the way it was intended. Hope you had a good time at Oliana Stu, great cliff. So lads how many Uk climbers have ticked 8C+ in the last year as a matter of interest? It is not  anywhere near 25, is it? I do know and fully acknowledge that Peak 8C+ is desp and take it into consideration. I think this next year is going to be big but unless some of the climbers in britain start really training they are doomed to be big fish in small ponds. And further you canot compare soloing the crux pitch of lets say the Fish with EOTA. Anyway thanks for some of you taking this the right way. I speak for a few, its no secrete, some of them like me have contributed a little to the climbing in britain. Stevie