[nik at work]

I've resisted posting on this thread as I feel I am of a previous generation and not in touch with the current scene very much (in fact I was never really in touch with scene when I was a young thing but that's rather by the by). However I would raise a few points:

Our current crop of climbers seem very good to me. They appear highly motivated and climb in good style, often improving on previous ascents. Historically the very best have always been small in number (just a handful of climbers) with a chasing pack following behind. The fact that this is still currently the case should hardly indicate the death of British climbing.

The visiting Americans have had a great trip and done lots of routes in good style. They managed to get some excellent weather whilst they were here (although they may disagree ) and used it well. They also had great skill, talent and enthusiasm. And, as a credit to us, a number of willing and enthusiastic tour guides. Pats on the back all round. But when you look at what they actually did in terms of breaking new ground perhaps they didn't tear us apart quite as much as seems to be thought. Ignoring The Promise and The Groove for a minute what did they actually do?
Well they ground-upped Parthian, now if this is E9 then thats a first E9 ground-up. But the fact that it can be safely ground-upped with multiple falls coupled with their opinions on the route suggests that it may be E8. Now E8 ground-up is seriously impressive, but not ground breaking. They headpointed Meshuga, but thats been done several times before. Again a great effort, but not ground-breaking. They flashed Gaia, now this is new, Gaia hasn't been flashed before, but E8 has. In fact E8 flashes have been happening sporadically on the grit for almost 10 years. Again it's a very impressive ascent but still not breaking a new grade boundary. I'd also add that they knew the route was safe-ish having seen the gear hold a fall, which is always nice for calming the nerves. Masters Edge onsight? Brilliant, but it was very ticked up apparently (not by them I hasten to add), and it's E7. Now E7 onsight is still impressive, but has been happening on grit for very many years (just not this route).
Now The Promise. They headpointed it and discovered a new sequence apparently, I don't know the route so can't comment on this but ultimately they felt it was E8. So they headpointed E8, good but not extraordinary. The Groove it seems they didn't climb the same line as James and the line they did they felt was E8(?), so again an E8 headpoint.
No denying a very good trip on a rocktype that it seems really plays to their strengths (I don't know them so base this statement only on the various bits of media of late) but hardly ripping the scene apart.

As for the downgrades of James routes, then they have offered an opinion on the grading. As more people repeat these routes a concensus grade will emerge. When James first climbed these routes he was operating in a bubble, he could only base his grading on how they felt to him and put forward his opinion based on his previous experiences. This is incredibly hard and often woefully innacurate. It does not in any way suggest that either the grading system is broken or that James is a rampant overgrader, just that he maybe got it a bit wrong. Or the Americans got it a bit wrong. Or they both got it a bit wrong. Over time concensus will emerge. Anyway this is a different debate.

For me the solo of London Wall is just staggering, but then I can't climb cracks.

My opinion is that Stevie and his fellow doubters should sleep easy, the futures in safe hands, the kids know what the're doing....

[Fiend]

just that he maybe got it a bit wrong. Or the Americans got it a bit wrong. Or they both got it a bit wrong. Over time concensus will emerge.

Exactly. Basically dozens of pages and hundreds of threads of waffling on about this issue can pared down to that essential simplicity.

[c.j.d.]

Now then, Mr Brown, are you trying to say I'm old or something - how very dare you!  I don't think I have grown out of the scene - I just don't think much of the one that there is!  Things have changed alot with regards to the way people look at our sport, become involved in it and how people choose to witter on about it. 

There was never so much absolute drivvel as there is now, or is this just my view - could be, who knows?

Anyhow, just go climbing and pull down. Use your imagination and whatever you do - DO NOT FOLLOW THE CROWD.

[Johnny Brown]

Lots of sense talked there Nick, but this;

Well they ground-upped Parthian, now if this is E9 then thats a first E9 ground-up. But the fact that it can be safely ground-upped with multiple falls coupled with their opinions on the route suggests that it may be E8.

is nonsense and only smacks of a closed grading system. This was the first E9 ground-up, by no means perfect style, but a step forward nonetheless.

[nik at work]

I didn't wish to imply a closed system (because it isn't), and as I don't know the route at all I am in no position to comment on the grade. All I was suggesting is that at the time of the first ascent I was under the impression that the flake/gear was considered not adequate to take a fall and that, coupled with the obvious difficulty of the climbing, led to the grade of E9. Current thinking seems to be that the gear is good and the flake solid which may (or may not, I'm in no position to comment) adjust the grade downwards. Also I believe (although I may be remembering this incorrectly) that the Americans suggested that the route was E8. Of course this may have been because they were under the impression that trad grades were a closed system stopping at E10, I really don't know. Maybe I was foolish to comment on the Parthian grade, after all I know nothing of the route and have never tried it. Perhaps I worded that element of the posting poorly, not making my meaning clear. Suffice it to say that if concensus is that it is E9 then that's good enough for me, and equally if concensus is that it is E8 then so be it. I still think my main point is valid. In that whilst they had a great trip and produced a world class performance they didn't completely blow the Sheffield/UK scene out of the water.

I happily take back the Parthian grade comment from the posting, whilst still standing by my conclusions.

Fair?

[Johnny Brown]

I think your summary was otherwise perfect, the Parthian bit just reminded me of Dave Pegg's daft statement that when Master's edge gets onsighted it should be downgraded, on principle, to E6.

I think Parthian has settled as benchmark an E9 as we have. That New Statesman may be as hard doesn't change that I don't think.

[nik at work]

Ah fair enough. I was't trying to suggest that I think Parthian should on principle be downgraded to E8, just that there have been "E8" noises made by other people. Parthian benchmark E9? I'll accept that. In which case they have done the first ground-up of an E9, which is amazing and a step forward. But still just a single step really, hardly light years ahead of what has gone before (not to detract from the achievement which is hugely impressive of course).
It seems we agree pretty much completely so I'll write no more. After all if both you and I are of the same mind then surely it must be considered F.A.C.T., that's SCIENCE that is 

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah. I think it would look a bit petulant to downgrade their one real coup. Although I think Gaia was another, even if Alex thought it was piss. Kevin proved otherwise by falling off.

[Paul B]

On a bit of a tangent, I think British Women seem to be doing very well atm.

[T_B]

On a bit of a tangent, I think British Women seem to be doing very well atm.

Big up from the Workers for Mia Stacey doing Super Prestat recently. Yes I know it 'only' gets 7b+ or 7b but I wonder how many British women have done it? And she holds down a gnarly job.

[Paul B]

and Mina on impossible slab or whatever its called, Brad Pit must have felt easy compared to that shit!

[T_B]

My opinion is that Stevie and his fellow doubters should sleep easy, the futures in safe hands, the kids know what the're doing....

Nik, your post is a bit Monty Python-esque!

"Well... apart from Parthian Shot, The Promise, New Statesman, Gaia, End of the Affair, The Groove, Simba's Pride, Meshuga, Kaluza Klein, Master's Edge, London Wall solo... what did they actually do?"

[nik at work]

I think you are (deliberately?) missing my point. I'm not saying "what did the actually do?" rather they did stuff that was brilliant and amazing and impressive etc etc etc. But that what they did, whilst very brilliant and amazing and impressive etc etc, was not light years ahead of what had gone before despite what some people seem to think. We have not been blown out of the water.

I am impressed by what they have done (which is a great deal), very impressed.

[Bonjoy]

Now then, Mr Brown, are you trying to say I'm old or something - how very dare you!  I don't think I have grown out of the scene - I just don't think much of the one that there is!  Things have changed alot with regards to the way people look at our sport, become involved in it and how people choose to witter on about it. 

There was never so much absolute drivvel as there is now, or is this just my view - could be, who knows?

Anyhow, just go climbing and pull down. Use your imagination and whatever you do - DO NOT FOLLOW THE CROWD.

What do you mean by scene? How much time have you spent recently experiencing the Peak scene, or the Yorkshire scene or the Lakes scene or any of the other scenes other than your local one? How have you gathered enough information to be so dismissive. The interenet is not the same as the scene.

[Johnny Brown]

Big up from the Workers for Mia Stacey doing Super Prestat recently. Yes I know it 'only' gets 7b+ or 7b but I wonder how many British women have done it?

Too right. And judging by the mere 13 registered repetitions, [cf carnage], it maintains a reputation bigger than its grade. Even with my 'slab credentials' as Cofe put it, it still took me longer than Carnage.  

[jfw]

mia did l'impossible as well as super prestat - i didn't know mina had as well - go girls team!

[Paul B]

it could just be me being a little thick.

I heard they'd been putting the lads to shame.

[Kim]

mia did l'impossible as well as super prestat - i didn't know mina had as well - go girls team!

l'impossible - now that's a tick too, harder than SP I reckon whatever the grades say. In a similar vein, compare repeats with Jet set next door.

[c.j.d.]

Bonjoy (real name?) - I'm not here to start an argument, this is purely my view on things.  If you new me, it would be very apparent that I am far from an interenet based 'witterer'.  How long have you been climbing for? 

My climbing career has been pretty awesome so far with regards to people I have climbed and hung out with in various scenario's, i.e. British scene, hanging with the old school before they where old (sorry guys!), 90's new school, through to the crowd we have now.  Also, I've climbed been involved with some great people (and great developments) that we have all probably (or should have) heard of from all over Europe.  It really is very different now - come on old schoolers, back up needed here!

One thing that is very different when you hook up with old freinds from overseas - the scene has remained the same, with the one difference - they are pushing the standards, and do not bitch and moan about half the bollocks mentioned on here.  Sorry Bonjoy, if you were'nt there, you missed out!

[grimer]

What the Americans did seems pretty impressive to me. The first flash (near on-sight) of Gaia, one of grit's most prized routes; flash of End of the Affair; first ground-up of Parthian (which, incidentally, even if this is accepted as E9, surely it can be no more 'benchmark' than EotA or Gaia); a quick repeat of the 'hardest route on grit'.

Plus everything else. Who else has done anything remotely as impressive as this?

[uptown]

Who else has done anything remotely as impressive as this?

I can appreciate how Brits don't make the best of skiers, but I'm a tad shocked that we aren't closer to the cutting edge of grit developments seeing as we own the rock...
(Don't take this personally anyone )

[nik at work]

Is that directed at me Grimer?
I don't know how I can make this any clearer and I feel like I'm repeating myself a bit but here goes:
What they did was incredibly impressive, amazingly impressive, astoundingly impressive. They are truly a world class act puuting in a world class performance on grit. Absolutely. Hats off to them. In a short time they have done a huge amount and it's (trying to think of a word I've not used yet...ummmmmm) flabbergasting. Stupendous. Etc etc.

I AM IMPRESSED.

But (and in the following I in no way take anything away from their amazing performance) I don't think that they have completely blown British climbing out of the water. I'm also not saying we have matched their performance. This has been the best 6 week(?) performance on grit by a team ever I'd guess. But there have been good British performances which whilst maybe not equivalent are certainly creditable and not far behind. Just because they did well doesn't mean we are shit, and it is that line of thinking that I think is wrong.

Lets not forget they are three world class climbers and it seems that grit very much suits their style. We shouldn't be surprised that they come over here and do well. I just don't see that they've trampled all over our 'scene'.

And just to be completely clear, what the Americans did is very impressive and I have at no point said it isn't.

[Jaspersharpe]

I wish you'd stop being so fucking negative.

[nik at work]

 

[dave]

I'd ditto what nik has said. Also, can we safely assume that these guys are sponsored full-timers? (i honestly don't know). they've had several weeks of being able to watch the weather and be out at the crags as much as possible. Contrast to most of the brit ascensionists of relatively recent hard grit routes - welford, grieve, bentley, bransby etc (was pearson climbing full-time when he did equilibrium?) most had jobs, if not full time then at least part time, which makes a vast difference. If you're only climbing weekends and waiting for the combo of form and right nick to onsight your E8 or headpoint your E10 and making sure you're at that rght crag at the right time you could be waiting for months if not years. plus that whole road-trip momentum thing can't be underestimated. if they came over here to live they wouldn't be doing a E9 every few days, i can guarantee it. They've done great inspirational things, but its not as if all UK tradsters aught to be ashamed of themselves by any means. afterall, if we weren't putting these hard routes up in the first place they wouldn't have any routes to repeat. So I recon is mad props all round - chin chin.

(also, to put things in perspective, what we generally don't hear about is when strong foreign climbers come over here and do preciscely fuck all. whihc can lead to a slightly skewed interpretation of foreign trad prowess compared to our own).