Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (RED-S)
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M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
What happened Alex?
*seemed like a reasonable thread to me all sides getting along, apart from that ged bloke seeing his arse about mental health / eating disorders.
*seemed like a reasonable thread to me all sides getting along, apart from that ged bloke seeing his arse about mental health / eating disorders.
Mr E S Capegoat said:
In much the same way as many blanket diagnoses that attempt to cover a range of actual symptoms. The problem is that people seem to want diagnoses. There's a rather broader point about these encouragingly healthcare behaviour, dependence and over medicalisation. Essentially I'm saying I think you've got a good point Dan.
Stu Littlefair
Well-Known Member
Quite a good thread that. It would have been wierd if you’d been banned for it!
My impression from reading the document alicia linked and some surrounding medical research on hypothalamus function and functional hypothalamic amenorrhea (FHA) is that the idea of RED S is useful, but suffers from too narrow a focus on energy deficit.
FHA is also strongly linked to emotional stress, for example, and occurs in sedentary women with normal diets too.
It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine nutrition beyond calories plays a role, and there’s some evidence that, e.g. vitamin D is important (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6265788/)
If Mina’s excellent article strikes a chord with someone reading it, then some self care (eat well, reduce stress, engage in activities that are simply fun) might yield more benefit than just eating more.
My impression from reading the document alicia linked and some surrounding medical research on hypothalamus function and functional hypothalamic amenorrhea (FHA) is that the idea of RED S is useful, but suffers from too narrow a focus on energy deficit.
FHA is also strongly linked to emotional stress, for example, and occurs in sedentary women with normal diets too.
It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine nutrition beyond calories plays a role, and there’s some evidence that, e.g. vitamin D is important (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6265788/)
If Mina’s excellent article strikes a chord with someone reading it, then some self care (eat well, reduce stress, engage in activities that are simply fun) might yield more benefit than just eating more.
Good post, except we all know that doing things that are fun is for losers. Start down that road and you'll end up like mr scapegoat, pontificating about the Freudian implications of spending too much time aerocapping on jugs shaped like dongs
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
You clearly need to read Kuntworthy’s latest schematic Alex. Overcoming Kleinian envy which developed through witnessing parental coitus. The energy systems pathway is clear and yes it does involve the budding ‘energy system acolyte’ hanging off a big yellow cock for 15 minutes before continuing to traverse in circles for 10. While an onlooking crowd of angry Self serious ukbers call for justice.
That one’s on you btw
That one’s on you btw
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
It seems shocking because it’s quite explicit and brought into public consciousness. A direct example of a brand ‘owning’ a person. I’m in two minds about the Red-s name. On one hand it raises awareness to sports people and navigates the potential shame of an anorexia or restrictive eating disorder diagnosis, possibly enabling ‘athletes’ to feel safer in accessing help on the other hand it’s absolutely not different on any level to an eating disorder diagnosis. Maybe it could be renamed red-L or relative energy deficiency in Life
T_B
Well-Known Member
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It's the level of abuse from Salazar that I find shocking and the fact that this culture remains so prevalent/accepted. There are other female Nike athletes now going public basically saying "yeah we knew this abuse was going on, sorry we didn't say anything".
But yes, as you say, Nike owns them.
But yes, as you say, Nike owns them.
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
It’s definitely interesting that a company at the end point of the capitalist system like Nike would employ a narcissist to do their dirty work. It’s similar to the point I was making in the other thread. The desire for perfection based on a sense of self that’s ‘held’ by others is a common theme in restrictive eating disorders. In this way the behaviour might not even have been recognised as abuse and coercive control, just ‘normal’. I’d argue you could expand this out quickly to the controlling culture as a whole and is fully present within climbing.
Stu Littlefair
Well-Known Member
Mr E S Capegoat said:
It's the human condition. As you say higher up the page it's only dysfunctional if it causes dysfunction. When held in check it also drives most human endeavour, including exploration, adventure and arguably charity.
It's easy to pile onto Salazar and Nike, and their behaviour is clearly horrible. BUT, in another context, society might view this kind of pressure and perfectionism as an ideal to strive for (e.g the Apollo programme). I think this makes the issue a bit harder to react to than just an "oh, isn't this awful" response.
To drag back onto RED-S I think it's power in helping athletes deal with disorder eating without stigma makes it a worthwhile concept. But it's also the weakness of a diagnosis, since it doesn't encourage the athlete to think about other areas of live that are putting their bodies under stress.
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
In this sense Salazar, Nike and society are one in the same. Under the illusion of free will the ‘athlete’ embraces their approach supported by the crowds desire to see performance and therefore experience themselves in this individual. Honnold and free solo is a good example of this in climbing, a bewildered man acting on motivations beyond his control for difficult to fully articulate reasons, held aloft by a community and idolised in this way. We all experienced a bit of what it was like to be him in the cinema. Some level of insight into this can offer a sense of freedom and opportunity to be more ‘yourself’. It’s clear many ‘great’ performances and endeavours have been undertaken in this way, smashey and nicey for example. I’d hazard that in the end the more driven and owned by the ‘other’ real person or abstraction (money, grades and it’s symbolism) the results are inevitably problematic for some if not all the people involved. Perfectionism exists because others make it so. This is a paradox in restrictive eating disorders and many other things, the society / government which is working so hard to ‘cure’ them is the very thing creating them e.g the education system
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
You’re taking the piss right Tom?
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
I think so. Family, educational, broader informing or governing, societal / cultural. Anything that ‘has’ or influences part of a person in that way. I guess trans-diagnostically it could work for lots of problems. Neurotic being ‘alienated’ from the inside world or self and ‘psychotic’ being alienated from the outside world or ‘other’ fully immersed inside your own head. Ps I don’t fully follow that broad idea and of course it’s a heuristic / oversimplification of the bio-psycho-social systems and their relative complex interactions.
M
Mr E S Capegoat
Guest
We’re agreeing then? 
please say yes.....
please say yes.....
