Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (RED-S)

[webbo]

Did you say the same, I would have never have guessed.
Do you speak like that in real life. :-\

 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

The old ukb lose-lose. To say any one system is to blame is overly simplistic without taking into consideration ideas like the nature of consciousness and the illusion of free will, predetermination, individual and broader cultural forces. Values, belief systems etc. So are the ‘family’ to blame? Only in that they represent the broader fucking mess in their dysfunctional behaviour. Is it the government / society / culture to blame? well we live in a performance orientated world where winning or getting your ‘medal’ whatever that might mean, is held paramount. Is genetics to blame, well in some part of course people can be more obsessional or ‘driven’ whatever. So are there a significant amount of climbers out there operating in this ‘system’ of course. And to be honest, so what? Every time somebody posts their weekly report including weight etc in power club, the whole thing is so predictable because it is a predetermined set of behaviours which have been instigated by all these driving factors and assimilated in the unconscious before they’ve even happened.
Jeez webbo I thought we could become solid pals there for a minute

 

[webbo]

Well I suppose I could be become pals with someone as well balanced as your good self.
Well balanced as in a chip on either shoulder.
Fuck me Dan you need to lighten up. I have climbed for about 47 years if you can call it climbing. These days I spend most of my time pissing about on a piece of overhanging plywood in the garage believing I’m training to get better or futility not any worse.
I would love to be doing what Jimmy Webb or Daniel Wood are doing not because they are the driven to be the best in the world by a society which thrives on elitism.
Because those moves they do just look fantastic and being able to do them must be out of this world.

 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Cheers for the advice. Although I’m not sure ‘Webb n Woods’ are real people? A bit like that ‘Shultez’ bloke. Figments of their own imagination.

 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Actually one thing about this -
When I responded to Tom’s post about ‘shocking and sad news’ with a well thought out and in depth reply to the best of my ability I get told to lighten up etc when it isn’t in-line with peoples thinking. Here’s the alternate response

‘Ooooo yes balsalsa fellah, shocking yes very terrible. Nike should give him the sack. How did some one like him ever get that job. Our young athletes need proper training to win medals. Ooooo terribly sad etc... I blame the parents and possibly teachers cos they’re all rubbish these days....’ ‘now that Jimmy Webb and Danny woods are the real thing, they’re not even aware of climbing as a ‘thing’ just turned up to a rock one day and celebrated getting to the top... amazing I’d like to be like them etc... true role models and they drink beer and eat macdonalds.... proper climbers’

 

[Ged]

What happened Alex?

*seemed like a reasonable thread to me all sides getting along, apart from that ged bloke seeing his arse about mental health / eating disorders.

You seem to get quite angry quite quickly.

 

[moose]

This latest Ross Tucker "The Science of Sport Podcast" might be of interest. I've not listened myself but the preceding ones in the series - on talent development, cheating / doping, and the evolution and effectiveness of the Nike Vaporfly were excellent.

https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/4676edf0-7f8a-4208-8464-0b929be25d66

https://player.fm/series/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/mary-cain-challenging-the-culture-of-fat-shaming-and-elite-performance

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mary-cain-challenging-culture-fat-shaming-elite-performance/id1461719225?i=1000457810935

 

[Fiend]

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose :-\

 

[Johnny Brown]

Who's playing Gill's role nowadays?

 

[Duma]

As mentioned on the current comps thread, Volker Schöffl has resigned from IFSC Medical Commission in protest at inaction on RED-S

https://www.instagram.com/p/CuUH0oIt1Ve/

As a consequence of the non-action of the IFSC I resign with immediate effect from my voluntary position in the IFSC Medical Commission.
Hereby I am drawing the same consequence as our MedCom president. We share the opinion that as medical doctors we can no longer accept the non-action of the IFSC concerning the RED-S problems of our athletes.

I have been a #MedCom member since the inauguration of the IFSC in 2009. During that time frame we achieved many goals for the well-being of our athletes. However, the current politics with regards to RED-S cannot be accepted. We have worked for more than 10 years on the topic. We have collected numerous data, have measured BMI/MI at every WorldCup last year and have developed very profound plans how to detect and help athletes with such problems. We have spent many hours in meetings and on the desk establishing a new and better system of monitoring and decision making. As a consequence, we now have the most profound data on this matter of all sport disciplines. We have pointed out the problem and possible solutions to the sports director and board continuously and repeatedly. However, the only acknowledgement we have received has consisted of defamation and discouragement. In short, the IFSC may not be willing at all to undertake further action regarding this important health issue of its athletes and is acitvely delaying and slowing down any decisions that could lead to much needed action.

As medical doctors we cannot accept this any longer.

Sport climbing has a RED-S problem.
Possible solutions to detect, evaluate and help critical athletes were developed through the Medical Commission.
These solutions have been and are being ignored. No further action is taken by the IFSC.

For the wellbeeing of our athletes and the development of this sport, I cannot take any responsibility on this matter and am forced to resign.

Many thanks to my long-time colleagues and friends in the Medical Commission for their work and efforts, especially to our president Dr.Eugen Burtscher.

I hope this step may help the cause and our athletes but I know it won‘t.

Volker Schöffl – climbing doctor

 

[Fiend]

Mmmmm some vintage baiting / attention-seeking Gapescrote on this thread! I do tend to agree with one implied point though, can we just call it what it is i.e. anorexia - within the context of a sport that rewards a certain level of power-to-weight enhancing eating disorder.

Fair play for Volker taking a public stance and a pity his efforts haven't come to anything yet. I wonder if it's callous to say "just let them get on with it", acknowledge that minimal body fat is one key component to performance and the athletes can choose to do that and take the risks in return for greater comp success.

 

[Wellsy]

It is up to them but also these are often young people surrounded by other people highly invested in their success but not necessarily in their wellbeing beyond that.

Lots of athletes have said there is a big problem and now we have a highly respected doctor saying he cannot continue as a medical professional in his role. I think that safeguarding is very important and that climbers at all levels can be vulnerable to eating disorders.

It wouldn't be right to say "let em make their own choice and bear the consequences" imo and it seems that the most qualified opinions seem to agree, or at least feel that not nearly enough is being done to keep athletes safe.

 

[Dexter]

I agree that it shouldn't just be ignored and up to them. To me this has some parallels to some countries use of steroids in Olympics. Where athletes are told to do something by a coach (take pills, or some diet) without truly understanding the implications and trusting the coach. Both examples have serious health implications but one illegal one isn't.

 

[Duncan campbell]

I’d agree, adding in that in my (personal) opinion and experience, often people who are highly successful and/or obsessed/motivated often have underlying mental health issues or traumas that drive them. Not always in a totally unhealthy way and obviously not always the case.


But I think the “let them make their own decisions” tact leaves a lot of room for people who are more vulnerable to put performance ahead of well-being at risk.

Plus it kind of says “athletic performance is more valuable than well-being” because those who are unwilling to sacrifice well-being to gain ultimate power-weight are penalised.

Obviously there is an element to this already but within the boundaries of what is healthy for an athlete.

Well-being should always be more valuable than athletic performance.

 

[yetix]

+1 on what Duncan said. It also sounds like volker felt he had tried to do everything he could but the ifsc were just dragging their heels. Will be interested to see what happens from this as it can't exactly make them look good and surely will need a response?

 

[Baron]

Slightly on a tangent.
Interesting comment from Mark Cavendish the other day about how landing a pro team cycling contract is no longer about victories, but more about your basic numbers (your engine, if you like). Made me wonder if pro climbing will head that way (hence tenuous link to weight control in this thread). I mean, it kinda happens already in a slightly different way with social media reach trumping ascent palmares.

 

[sirlockoff]

the IFSC has been working on new regulations such that people with low BMI (<=18) will have to undergo bunch of medical screenings (Alanna's IG)

the doctor(s) / athletes also want a RED-S testing to every athlete, which to my understanding is not synonym with disordered eating, so what we consider 'healthy looking athlete' could indeed have RED-S, and that seems quite a black box

 

[Muenchener]

I wonder if it's callous to say "just let them get on with it", acknowledge that minimal body fat is one key component to performance and the athletes can choose to do that and take the risks in return for greater comp success.

According to this interview with Dr Schöffl (unfortunately only in German) the athletes almost certainly aren't aware of the real risks. It's not just a case of a temporary compromise for a few competitive years. Anorexia, he says, is the #1 cause of death in young women, and he himself has had patients die or be permanently disabled by it.

Also, many of the athletes concerned are adolescents who should not be expected to make life-risking choices entirely on their own initiative, and whose coaches are to a certain degree in loco parentis and should (he said, naïvely) be concerned about their wellbeing and not just their competitive success.

 

[SA Chris]

We have developed very profound plans how to detect and help athletes with such problems. We have spent many hours in meetings and on the desk establishing a new and better system of monitoring and decision making. As a consequence, we now have the most profound data on this matter of all sport disciplines. We have pointed out the problem and possible solutions

From reading this, it looks like different options have been presented rather than just "testing for low BMI"; other testing options are probably available. Looks like all are being ignored though.

 

[Muenchener]

From reading this, it looks like different options have been presented rather than just "testing for low BMI"; other testing options are probably available. Looks like all are being ignored though.

Schöffl says in the interview that he'd prefer a bodyfat percentage to a BMI limit, but that there's no currently available cheap, convenient test for bodyfat that gives consistently repeatable results. He says there's some promising research in that direction currently ongoing. Meanwhile he regards a BMI limit as much better than nothing, for all BMI's limitations. But apparently BMI limit warnings/recommendations that are sent out to national federations & coaches are simply being ignored.

I suspect the IFSC's reluctance or inability to do anything more serious about enforcement is what's led to the resignations.