[Alan James, Rockfax]

I am looking for bouldering grades for some of the short routes on Birchen Edge that have traditionally been given E-grades but are probably better described as boulder problems nowadays.

The main three are :

Technical Genius - E1 6c
Low problem on Emma's Slab.

Gritstone Megamix - E3 6c
The direct start the Chain on The Promenade.

Hornblower - E1 6b
Direct to Powder Monkey Parade

Any suggestions for V-grades, or Font grades for these?

Any other routes on Birchen that are treated as boulder problems?

Thanks

Alan

[Palomides]

<innocently>

Sorry Alan, I've no idea   

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Add to the list

The Brigand at Birchen

and Desperot at Chatsworth

Anybody care to suggest grades for these?

Thanks

[Fiend]

If you wait a bit for the new BMC Chatsworth guide, I'm sure they'll have them all covered with V-grades as they're doing these days 

[Alan James, Rockfax]

If you wait a bit for the new BMC Chatsworth guide,

.... and how will the BMC find out their bouldering grades?

[(woz)]

My opinion:

Technical Genius - font 7a/V6

Hornblower - font 7a/V6

Sorry, but these are the only two that I've done

[Johnny Brown]

.... and how will the BMC find out their bouldering grades?

The writers or their friends will go and do them? Crikey, I thought that was how guides were written!

[r-man]

Oh please don't start this boring argument again. Whatever issues people may have with Rockfax, this is a forum for talking about bouldering... And I for one would certainly be interested to know what boulder problems there are at Birchen, how hard they are, and how good they are. Didn't know there was much worth doing. So if people would kindly share their knowledge, I'd be grateful.

 

[Johnny Brown]

Actually several of us were involved with checking exactly this subject a few months ago for the next BMC guide. Having put in personal time and effort to make sure of the facts, you can understand our reluctance in just handing over the information to 'the competition'.

I'm sure the info is available somewhere if both of you look hard enough.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

I happen not to be able to boulder the routes at Birchen in question. I have nearly done one of them but I am nowhere near the others. However I don't rely on my single opinion for Hornblower (the one I have nearly done) since that would be stupid - one person's opinion is extremely unreliable. So I have sent emails to my bouldering friends who I think may have done them, and I am asking publicly on a bouldering forum, and on UKC, to try and see what other people think so that I can build up a consensus opinion.

You may have noticed that Rockfax publish all our grades online so that people can give feedback on them, something which those who work on BMC guides have told me many times they find an extremely useful resource. We try, and often succeed, in doing this before publication and then update them after publication based on the feedback received. Ultimately we just want to get as many people's opinions as possible to try and gain a consensus, that, after all, is what grades are about - a concensus opinion for how hard something is.

Your attitude saddens me especially when you consider that on another thread on this forum we are being criticised for not talking to the locals.

Alan

[Johnny Brown]

Oh right, so this is 'talking to the locals' is it?

Rockfax seems to be struggling to get grass-roots involvement with its guides. Why is this?

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Oh right, so this is 'talking to the locals' is it?

It is one method. I have emailed several people as well, and if I am out at the edge, or down the wall, I will chat to them. I am not aware of any methods of talking to the locals other than these. Of course a helpful specialist forum is usually the best method for this kind of thing since you can reach a wide range of people instead of dropping into the constricted opinions of a small local group.

Keep in mind that this is actually a routes guide I am seeking information for, so the bouldering will not be covered to any great depth, but it is important to be accurate, which is why I was seeking help on here.

Unfortunately I am bumping up against people like you who are more interested in axe-grinding and point scoring which is a shame and reflects badly on the forum as a whole, although I have picked up a link from someone which does give an indication about some grades.

Rockfax seems to be struggling to get grass-roots involvement with its guides. Why is this?

I think 19,400 comments and 137,000 votes on our databases would indicate that we are in fact getting more involvement at every level than any UK guidebook producer has ever previously managed.

Alan

[Johnny Brown]

I have no axe to grind. As for point scoring, I have no idea how that would work. Just for the record, I don't have a copy of the info you are after, so it's not me who is withholding it. Those who are have been silent thus far. I am at least prepared to discuss why folk might withhold it though.

Of course I am aware you have set up a database that gets lots of votes, I think the best thing about this is making new route info accessible rather than being kept in manky books in cafes. I'm not convinced about grading via anonymous online votes though.

However despite your protestations I think it is true that the kind of folk who are seen as 'the' local expert, and are prepared to give up time to actually write guide scripts are not doing so for you. Why is this? Is it simply because your selective guides are not attractive to them? Or is it because you haven't got the infrastructure to recruit them before they get narked at not being asked?

I have picked up a link from someone which does give an indication about some grades.

Are you going to share this to get the thread back on topic?

[Alan James, Rockfax]

However despite your protestations I think it is true that the kind of folk who are seen as 'the' local expert, and are prepared to give up time to actually write guide scripts are not doing so for you. Why is this? Is it simply because your selective guides are not attractive to them? Or is it because you haven't got the infrastructure to recruit them before they get narked at not being asked?

We have had a huge amount of help from local experts over the years - Dorset, Clwyd Limestone, all Peak books, Rjukan, etc. . In fact Lakes Bouldering is the only area where this has become and issue, despite there being over half a dozen locals listed in the acknowledgements. I get requests from locals all the time proposing new guides to areas we haven't covered yet, and literally hundreds of emails from people both local and not local.

So I can't answer your last questions because, in my perception, the scenario you mention isn't true.

Are you going to share this to get the thread back on topic?

It is just a previous thread on this forum - http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,4474.0.html

[cofe]

I think 19,400 comments and 137,000 votes on our databases would indicate that we are in fact getting more involvement at every level than any UK guidebook producer has ever previously managed.

Alan

does these statistics include the 36 votes cast for violent new breed, the 17 for Equilibrium or the 14 for Total Eclipse?

[Alan James, Rockfax]

does these statistics include the 36 votes cast for violent new breed, the 17 for Equilibrium or the 14 for Total Eclipse?

Those kind of routes always attract spurious votes. What is important is for us to learn how to interpret the votes and not be swayed where dodgy voting has taken place. What we experience with the votes is that, on the more popular routes, the votes drop into excellent bell curves built up of over 100 votes. Even on the lesser popular routes, there are votes and opinions which would have been so difficult to collect by other methods.

We have our own rules for how we interpret the votes suffice to say that 51% voting for an upgrade isn't good enough, whereas 51% voting for a downgrade is.

I am not saying the system is fool-proof but it is better than anything else around at the moment. Those who doubt it seldom have a more accurate alternative to suggest.

Alan

[Bonjoy]

 The voting thing is good but could do with some tweaks, such as having a broader range of grades (sometimes the correct grade is off the top or bottom of the options available) and grade type options (some stuff traditionally given route grades which are now climbed as problems, trad routes which have too much situ gear so should be considered sport routes or have been retro bolted).
 Would also be more interesting if routes not within the limited scope of the Rockfax guides were votable online (although to a lesser extent I guess your logbook thing is doing this). By doing this you would also find out which areas/routes previously excluded from guides deserve inclusion. It would also help to counter the accusation that Rockfax guides exaserbate(sp?) honeypotting on the established classics

[Alan James, Rockfax]

All good suggestions. I may have some improvements to the database scheduled for later in the year.

Too much to do and not enough time.

[dave]

I do find it rather contradictary that in any online discussion Mick always choses (conveniently) to ignore the opinions and arguments of "anonymous" individuals, and yet on the other hand it seems the primary means of rockfax gathering grading info for new guides is on the basis of anonymous voting. Going on Mick's theory, you should only accept grading vots if the individual in question is prepared to give their name, address, date of birth, mother's maiden name, blood group and credit card number, along with a signed passport photograph witnessed by a doctor and a school teacher.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

I disagree. Voting on grades and taking part in a discussion with others are different things.

For the online voting, you have to be registered to vote, and can only vote once on each route making large scale abuse of the system difficult, if not impossible. A bit like an election really - you are a known individual but your vote is private. It is also worth considering the fact that making voting systems any less anonymous would probably make them unusable. As I keep repeating, the results we get are forming excellent bell curves which is the measure of good, well-balanced statistics.

As for taking part in discussions anonymously: the desire of some people to express strong opinions and yet not put their name to it is something which beats me altogether. I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would want to do this and I do tend to not take anonymous comments seriously (having said that, I don't regard the comments on this forum of registered 'identities' as anonymous despite the fact that I don't know who most people are).

Of course if they are the same, and there is a contradiction, then there would be an equal and opposite contradiction in your argument as well.

[Bonjoy]

As for taking part in discussions anonymously: the desire of some people to express strong opinions and yet not put their name to it is something which beats me altogether.

Come now it's not that hard to fathom. If those strong opinions differs from the convention of the day, maybe the poster would like the opportunity to discuss the point without attracting the opprobrium of the masses. Perhaps they would like to be able to explore a controversial subject , maybe only as devil's advocate, without risking a mauling by irate sheep next time they're seen down the wall. Isn't that part of the beauty of the internet, that you can discuss whatever you like without having to always pin your colours to the mast. Obviously anonymous mudslinging is a different matter.

[Bubba]

I always find this strange - "Putting your name to something" on the web is meaningless.

On my forums there are women registered as men, men registered as women, real looking names that are nothing like their real names, and the other assorted usernames.

Some of us on here know who each other are because we've met in real life, but really you can't rely on anything beyond that.

Surely it's the quality of posts that is important, not the "real" identity of who is behind them?

[Fiend]

On my forums there are women registered as men, men registered as women

Any on here?? 

[Bonjoy]

On my forums there are women registered as men, men registered as women, real looking names that are nothing like their real names, and the other assorted usernames.

Would that be your other forum, uktransexualswithidentitycrisis.com ?  

[dave]

For the online voting, you have to be registered to vote, and can only vote once on each route making large scale abuse of the system difficult, if not impossible.

to vote on the grades you only need a working email address and an assumed name. This in my eyes is no less anonymous than posting anonymously on UKC. Or indeed posting as a registered user on UKC! If you have several email addresses you can register as several users and vote several times. You dont even need a valid email address or a registration to leave comments against routes.

I agree that large scale abuse of the system is improbable, but that is beside the point. At the end of the day there is no more or less validity or comeback from someone registering and voting on a route grade than there is for someone posting on a forum unregistered. Its not as if owning an email address is the internet equivalent of a passport, a driving licence and a recent utility bill!