[Dude]

wings of unreason is soft, just a confidence thing. safe.

I agree Dave, but it's only E4 if your short, its very morpho, my mate at 6/3 barely had to pop for it, its way further for me.

E2 for all you lanky gits :D

[Fiend]

EJ only has one runner (the one you could place from the top)and it is useful. I'd say looping nuts together is more dubious(gay) than placing from the top or the side (without use of rope), it's little better than using a clipstick.

At last something more interesting than this tedious "wanting a grade without wanting what it means" nonsense.

Say you are starting on a route (onsight of course). It says in the guidebook description that there's a crucial small wire placement that's hard to place. So you take up a rack of the usual RPs Offsets Peenuts and general unconvincing brass bollox. You get to a point where you can see the wire placement, just out of reach, and things look tricky getting to it and past it. So you take off a couple of wires and fiddle around looping them together with your teeth and free hand, and then manage to place and clip that wire at a stretch.

Is there a problem with that? To me that seems like taking on the full challenge and using your cunning and standard trad leading equipment to protect it, under your own steam, on the route.

Even if you loop the wires together on the ground (on the off chance that "hard to place" might mean "reachy to place"), you're still just using standard equipment available...

[clm]

radio active distbin is the ultimate grading joke - the only e4 i would consider doing in muddy adidas sambas when i have mountain biked up there.

[grimer]

Sorry JB, but you can't have that.

I've heard stories about that route, all sorts of people falling off it on the solo, and isn't that the one where andy popp emerhedwith his yellow lycra apparently covered in blood in front of a group of schoolgirls, and one about Mark McGowan getting gripped just below the top and making a lunge for Nick Dixon and just carching the tip of his thumb, then Ian Squak Dunn discovered that you could lean down an preplace an RP. I think that partially the locals had already soloed it, and partially because it was squak who discovered it, the lean-down was dismissed as an outright cheat.

[Paz]

. In my book this is still in keeping with the ground up ethic.

More `top down' than ground up but I guess if you want to preplace gear but not preinspect the climbing or the rotue from an ab point then fine.  It may even be a fairly satisfying style of ascent but in general where you don't preplace, doing anything from the top is just a bit contrived - you may as well set up a top rope.  Larks footing wires - fine.  De-riguer even.  I've had gear above my head for the crux of two semi bold* routes at Pembroke doing that.  If you only need the odd crucial wire then rack up like that if you will.  

What do people think about gaining information from looking at the route from the top (Demon Wall springs to mind, the guidebook quote "Hidden Hold...  Go and have a look if you're that unadventurous" is very apt) or even climbing adjacent routes.  There was a tactics article on planetfear that suggested it was all legit preparation for the onsight - a good look is just getting the sight part right.  PF don't decide upon the definitive ethical requirements for the country but they wouldn't have written that if someone hadn't done it and claimed the onsight, so that shit goes on...  

On sea cliffs people even suggest using a preplaced belay rope.  I'm all for putting more gear in before you top out but I've never been in a situation where doing this wasn't more of a convenience than a legitimate safety requirement for an ascent of a route at it's grade,
despite what the guide book says, on reasonably popular routes.  I've also only ever managed to put the belay rope in the right place once.  I think the great art of climbing steep grass has been lost by British climbers :D .  

* I.e. Bomber Rock 1s not Rock 10s.

[dave]

wings of unreason is soft, just a confidence thing. safe.

I agree Dave, but it's only E4 if your short, its very morpho, my mate at 6/3 barely had to pop for it, its way further for me.

E2 for all you lanky gits :D

i'm about 6'1 and even with when seconded i'm about 4 inches short of the hold at full stretch - however a friend of the same hight (or a tad taller) managed to reach it on the lead - different ape indexes i guess.

[andy_e]

radio active distbin is the ultimate grading joke - the only e4 i would consider doing in muddy adidas sambas when i have mountain biked up there.

which grot hole is that at? is it 'zarke?

[Control freak]

radio active distbin is the ultimate grading joke - the only e4 i would consider doing in muddy adidas sambas when i have mountain biked up there.

which grot hole is that at? is it 'zarke?

You and the fuckin Lancs quarries - do you ever get out. No its not in Lancashire - its in the peak. Burbage north to be exact

[webbo]

andi
just out of intrest what is the hardest route you've led on sight/ground up.

[dave]

i would imagine that if you're not tall and without mats LIARD would feel well E4. Remember avid robocopped himself on it and he's about 6'3 and wasn't weighed down by a nomadica ski jacket.

[grimer]

yeah, you never used to see any chalk on it in pre pad days.

[Bonjoy]

I remember trying LIARD before mats were used and it was a whole diffrent ballgame. It's ok doing it without a mat when you've done it before with and you know what's coming, but first time up.... Just a case of the guide being out of date.
 Just for the record, I was speaking theoretically only regards EJ. I haven't done it, or leaned down and placed gear any any route I can remember, or used looped together wires for that matter. But in theory I think its within the bounds of the ground up style. Actually come to think of it, when I led Censor at Stanage I soloed down the Dangler, leaned across and placed a cam :roll: .

[grimer]

Actually come to think of it, when I led Censor at Stanage I soloed down the Dangler, leaned across and placed a cam :roll: .

Well you certainly score points in my book for that sort of carry on, Jon

[AndyR]

radio active distbin is the ultimate grading joke - the only e4 i would consider doing in muddy adidas sambas when i have mountain biked up there.

which grot hole is that at? is it 'zarke?

You and the fuckin Lancs quarries - do you ever get out. No its not in Lancashire - its in the peak. Burbage north to be exact

 :D
Was thinking exactly the same thing.

Midnight Lightning? Is that in Wilton 3?........

[andy_e]

i could have sworn there's a route to do wiht dustibins in lancashire somewhere.

[Yossarian]

i think there's a few that should be in dustbins...

[SA Chris]

i could have sworn there's a route to do wiht dustibins in lancashire somewhere.

Just because it has something to do with landfill, doesn't mean it's in lancashire.

[webbo]

i think there's a few that should be in dustbins...

 :D  

[andy_e]

the eight-legged atomic dustbin will eat itself is what i waqs thinking of

[webbo]

well what is it.

[clm]

you people!!

im talking pre mats here.

its easy to land off if you split your feet and land across the gully beind you.

mats Pah!

(ps.  i have one now)

[andy_e]

andi
just out of intrest what is the hardest route you've led on sight/ground up.

E2 5b - a solo at Harcles' Hill (forget the name)

[grimer]

E2's good Andi.

However, and this is just my opinion, one of the best things in climbing is doing the really great routes when they are just the right level for you. By rushing through grades you miss out a lot. So while there may be E4s out there that will suit you or are easy for the grade, the best thing is to do shit loads of brilliant E2s, and get really solid at the grade, then do the same at E3 and so on. You're young, so you have bags of time. And that way, when you get to E4, and you soon will, you can have a go at any one and get up it.

This really will be a much more satisfying way of climbing, for as sure as eggs are eggs, even if you did get up an E4, the next week you could be having a 'mare on an E1, and that just gets depressing.

And when you are solid at E4, you will realise all the ones that are easy for E4 are actually E3s.

I was going to say just enjoy it and don't worry too much about the grades, but you obviously know that already and don't need me to tell you.

Oh, and response to your other post, I'm starting to think that you'll never please everyone, and, like grades, sometimes there's no point worrying about it.

[andy_e]

cheers grimer! a real inspiration there. however, if i ever get out of the lancashire quarries (or in to them with someone with a rope) it won't be for a lonmg time yet. inspiration always comes to me when i have to revise. grrrrrrrrrrr.

[grimer]

Cheers Andy.

And if it's any consolation, I quite liked Rivelin rhyming with Ritalin.