[Sasquatch]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLHYhfZg3-3/

Another set of thoughts

[AMorris]

I thought with ab roller you kept everything else locked and rotated around your shoulder (like a rings prone I)? Does squeezing your abs to generate the movement involve arching your back?

not arching it so much, more sucking the abs up into the ribs and removing some anterior pelvic tilt. If you keep this tight throughout the movement then it will target the abs far more than the lats. There is a certain amount of rotation around the shoulder, of course, but if you limit the movement to this then I feel like it misses the point of the exercise. It will target lats (as suggested above), and limit the work require by the abs. This kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise in my opinion. If I wanted to target lats then ab rolling badly seems a weird way of doing it.

[mrjonathanr]

He has done a few podcasts with Neely Quinn on Training Beta. Worth listening,

[Coops_13]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLHYhfZg3-3/

Another set of thoughts

"Abraham-what-not" 

[NaoB]

I had a brief play with the snake oil protocol this lunchtime (hey, I'm a sucker for easy gainz!), tweaked it a bit with less rest and more reps (10 secs hang, 20 secs rest x6) to get closer to the magic useful 10 minutes of hang time. Quick question for those with more experience on the beastmaker than I have - the last two hangs he calls 'crimps' on the lower two finger pockets, it looked like he used a half crimp / chisel grip, this felt weird and possibly tweaky for me on 2 fingers.... Will that get easier with more practice, or is there a safe technique for 2 finger crimping that I should know about?
On a side note, this is an easy session to slot in when you only get a half hour lunch break and you also want to fit in actually eating something. Better than doing nothing surely?

[Fiend]

Everybody wanna be a strong climber, but don't nobody wanna do those long ass hangs...

[tomtom]

Everyone wants something for nothing...

I thought the point of training was to endure long tedious hours of repetition - providing an empty space to expand the mind and nurture the soul? Not to actually get better!! 😱

[MischaHY]

I don't believe there is any evidence base to suggest that a) 30 days is a long enough window for anything more than minimal strength gains in tendon/ligament structures and b) that loading to such a small percentage of max would stimulate any supercompensation.

In the time frame where he made the gains he also did a bunch of hard bouldering and apparently dropped some weight. This is more than enough on its own to get the kind of recruitment gains he shows IMO. I've gone through long periods (months) of never touching a fingerboard and just bouldering, then come back and do a one-arm PB. There's a reason that one-arm strength is a reasonable predictor of boulder grade!

My experience is that consistent time put into a solid, periodised combination of max hangs, repeaters and grip specialisation depending on goals is the most effective method of improving finger strength.

So, this?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLHdNZSjrPs/?igshid=uq6q48vkh9qy

I guess so!

[RobK]

it looked like he used a half crimp / chisel grip, this felt weird and possibly tweaky for me on 2 fingers.... Will that get easier with more practice, or is there a safe technique for 2 finger crimping that I should know about?

When I tried it I felt the same. Maybe not tweaky but perhaps a little uncomfortable. I could be wrong but in my mind I felt like that was maybe part of the point. On those grips I was doing it at such low forces that I would never (famous last words) do myself harm but perhaps target and isolate tendons that would usually be supported by others. This could also be complete and utter rubbish. I was also thinking about doing something like you did with 10 on 20 off to increase the time under load but ideally don't want to increase the session time beyond 10 minutes as that is what makes it so easy to fit in.

On a side note, I have done two sessions of this and last night did a 'proper' repeaters session. Managed a PB with the weight I was hanging and it felt pretty steady. What more proof do you need?! Most noticeable was that when I started to warm up I felt like I usually do a few minutes into my warm up, which I guess is not surprising that I still had a bit of recruitment from the morning. Maybe that is where some of the gains are to be had, in that it allows you to actually pull harder during your other sessions? Incidentally I am fully expecting this to have little to no effect but still very intrigued to see how it pans out over the next month.

[tomtom]

I don't see why follow the different holds/finger combo's he does in the video. EG.

IF - the point is to give your fingers/tendons a bit of an exercise (lets say at 60-70% body weight) for ten min... then why work some fingers harder than others?

I just don't get this. EG if to get the same 'feel' in my fingers I use 70%bw for all four fingers, but only comfortable with 40% on the back two - then why not just carry on doing 70% on all? My back two will be getting near enough the same work out? I guess it works the familiarity with the hang position and the other muscles/tendons around the fingers for holding two digits/mono's etc... but - for the overall aim it makes no sense...

BTW - I liked the video - and hope it works for people...

[jwills]

On a side note, I have done two sessions of this and last night did a 'proper' repeaters session. Managed a PB with the weight I was hanging and it felt pretty steady. What more proof do you need?! Most noticeable was that when I started to warm up I felt like I usually do a few minutes into my warm up, which I guess is not surprising that I still had a bit of recruitment from the morning. Maybe that is where some of the gains are to be had, in that it allows you to actually pull harder during your other sessions? Incidentally I am fully expecting this to have little to no effect but still very intrigued to see how it pans out over the next month.

I've noted I often perform better on board sessions in the evening if I've done a fingerboard workout (usually max hangs) in the morning. I also tend to perform better my second day on. All probably a related recruitment phenomenon going on.  Overall really interesting though and I'm excited people are trying this and hoping to see some longer term results.

[Stu Littlefair]

Quick question for those with more experience on the beastmaker than I have - the last two hangs he calls 'crimps' on the lower two finger pockets, it looked like he used a half crimp / chisel grip, this felt weird and possibly tweaky for me on 2 fingers.... Will that get easier with more practice, or is there a safe technique for 2 finger crimping that I should know about?

This routine is pretty similar to what I do when I want to get stronger on tweaky holds, or when I'm rehabbing a finger injury - i.e frequent FB sessions at low intensity. I've always felt that it's good to use the tweaky positions, but at a level of intensity I'd characterise as "mild discomfort".

This is based on no science at all - purely gut instinct, but I've done this kind of routine on and off for years. I've never noticed a quantum leap in standards, but it does help with finger niggles.

[NaoB]

Thanks for the replies guys. Based on what you have said, I will keep trying this with the awkward position but not pull as hard on those grips as on the more comfortable ones. Hopefully over time it will give some kind of adaptation and / or resilience to injury.

At this rate, we will be the UKB test pool and give some decent scientific data for the efficacy of this regime in a few weeks! Public service....

[Oldmanmatt]

Quick question for those with more experience on the beastmaker than I have - the last two hangs he calls 'crimps' on the lower two finger pockets, it looked like he used a half crimp / chisel grip, this felt weird and possibly tweaky for me on 2 fingers.... Will that get easier with more practice, or is there a safe technique for 2 finger crimping that I should know about?

This routine is pretty similar to what I do when I want to get stronger on tweaky holds, or when I'm rehabbing a finger injury - i.e frequent FB sessions at low intensity. I've always felt that it's good to use the tweaky positions, but at a level of intensity I'd characterise as "mild discomfort".

This is based on no science at all - purely gut instinct, but I've done this kind of routine on and off for years. I've never noticed a quantum leap in standards, but it does help with finger niggles.

No, it’s just standard strength training.
If it’s tweaky, it’s near your limit, at that point in time (what you could do “before” is irrelevant, coz atrophy).

Want to get stronger? Low rep, near 1rm, long rests.

So, strength training and conditioning is rarely long and tedious, in a given session, and often feels low intensity (because pushing too hard is courting injury), but is a (relatively) long process.

If the fella in the vid is loading to something in excess of 70% of his 1rm, then he’s going to see strength improvement. If you’re not, you won’t.

The closer to 1rm you pull, the faster the “gains” but the higher the risk. 

One reason people plateau, though, is failing to realise that their 1rm increases over time. Reassessing every ~4 weeks is the trick.

(Humans have hormonal cycles, male and female. They’re all different, but 28 days, ish, isn’t going to be far off. This is why most exercise programs are based on “8 weeks” or “See results in just 12 weeks”, so assessment is done at similar points on those cycles). It’s been five years since I finished my training and 18 months since I stopped my practice and two years since my last serious weight loss and rehab client, but charting rate of weight loss over a few months, illustrates the cycles. It is more pronounced (in terms of weight loss) in females, but you can see it in both sexes. My point being, your physiological response to training stimulus will vary from day to day.
Don’t assess too frequently).

I’ll either have to dig textbooks out the attic or spend time on Google scholar, that I don’t have right now, to cite for that and I may misremember the specifics.

[Coops_13]

There's a PT who posted on reddit - seems to have some interesting things to say: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/lhacnu/clearing_up_confusion_on_emils_new_twice_a_day/

Effectively citing that this programme puts you at a higher risk of injury due to tendon stiffening

[spidermonkey09]

 

That made my head hurt. Doesn't seem very intuitive to me- short duration hangs at small loads are an increased injury risk but if the hangs were longer it would be good for healing?

 

[webbo]

I think it was 10 second hangs at 80% where as the guy asking the physio suggests 30seconds at 20% which I think he says is ok.

[Bradders]

Everybody wanna be a strong climber, but don't nobody wanna do those long ass hangs...

Do you even no-hang at 70% of the effort level it would take to lift off the floor, bro?

Doesn't have quite the same ring to it 

[mrjonathanr]

There's a PT who posted on reddit - seems to have some interesting things to say: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/lhacnu/clearing_up_confusion_on_emils_new_twice_a_day/

Effectively citing that this programme puts you at a higher risk of injury due to tendon stiffening

They need to be a continuum from stiff as they blend into bone and highly elastic as they blend into muscle, surely? So it reads like he is saying this protocol stiffens tendons at the muscular end ( I won't say junction, as it is a continuum with tendon fibres present along the muscle fascicles, if I understand correctly).

thought this was interesting though, would like to understand mechanism behind his thinking here:

Regarding finger health - short duration loads aren't great at remodelling tendon due to stress shielding mechanisms in the tendon. This would be a great finger health program if the load durations were longer but still submaximal.

[Scouse D]

We need Huffy's opinion here I reckon

[webbo]

Is there any chance of finding out whether the  is 10 or 30 seconds as I’m at 6 hours from my first set. Or do I just split the difference and go 15 seconds.

[Andy W]

Seems too good to be true. Be great if others can replicate this.

My wife started laughing at me before I got 2 mins into this video, so I don't know if this version on 8a.nu is the same or not   https://www.8a.nu/news/train-all-three-gripping-positions-24csy  But it got me thinking that years ago I tried something that I read Andy Earl spoke about...hanging an edge and turning an open hand grip into a full crimp, quite brutal and very climbing specific.

[webbo]

Did this with 30 second hangs with a minutes rest between. I got a slight pump on, does this mean I’m using too much weight or just incredibly lacking in stamina. 

[Anti]

So everyone on social media is losing their shit over this video. I'm baffled though. 4 months ago Emil posted a video of his benchmarks, at what he claims was the heaviest he's been (82kg) where he hangs middle slot one armed for 7s. ( @12min 20s) A month ago he hangs 200% of his BW on a 20mm edge at 76kg.

In his Q&A to this video he says he weighed 4kg more at 82kg than he did doing this program, meaning for a 7s one arm hang he now effectively requires 4kg of assistance?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, after a month of twice a day finger training he's basically not as strong as he was 4 months ago...

[Bradders]

Yeah that came up a few posts back.

He even says in that video that he's hung the BM hold for 10s before as well. Something funny going on one way or the other.