[crzylgs]

Hi all - so appreciate pre-workout or supplements in general aren't for everyone. I've never been a big user of supplements, occasional cycles on creatine and whey protein shakes (I always go for the plain as the flavours have artificial sweeteners in them and mix with full fat milk) post training session shake (its often 45-60mins, before I'm home and cooked dinner etc) so i feel the shake helps with recovery.

Looking on 'Bulk Powders' (other supplement selling sites are available), they have some really silly prices on stuff today for 'Black Friday'. For a little while I've been considering getting a pre-workout, but when I look at the pre-made collections they all inevitably have something in them I don't want:

- high amounts of caffeine (I'd rather drink an espresso)
- artificial colours and/or sweeteners. If I'm about to work my ass off, I'd rather have actual sugar in a pre-workout and eat a spoon less of carbs with dinner.
- creatine, I'd rather control when taking this not have it mixed in with all the other goodies.

Things I think I want in a pre-workout (in descending order of importance) and assuming I'll be getting the caffeine from coffee and maybe taking creatine independently for certain phases:

- Beta Alanine
- BCAAs
- Citrulline Malate...? Potential energy booster / used in Urea cycle. This seems to get 'bigged up' in various places.

- Tyrosine... ? Seen this pop up in a couple of mixtures. Is apparently a pre-cursor / involved in adrenaline production.
- Vit B6 / B12 - another potential energy booster, that pops up in a few pre-mixed solutions.

I think I'm probably just going to go for the first 3 and be fairly happy that I get most other things from a well balance diet.

Does anyone else do similar? If so what's in your fave concoction? Am I crazy? Have I forgotten anything with substantial scientific and/or anecdotal evidence?   

[shark]

Pain au raisin?

[Steve Crowe]

I was expecting a stretching, Thera band, TRX, fingerboard routine.

[tomtom]

Espresso and a Marlboro.

[Oldmanmatt]

Espresso and a Marlboro.

I’ve usually had  6 or 8 shots before I get around to training.
Does that count?

[MischaHY]

Espresso, banana and a vitamin B complex tablet. Skip the espresso if it's after 3PM as it'll affect sleep quality and have a net-negative effect even if you train a tiny bit harder.

Vit B has a noticeable effect on sustaining energy levels over long sessions (anecdotal for me but recommend by a nutritionist)

BCAA's are a waste of time and can actually have a net-negative effect as you're providing the trigger for protein synthesis (leucine) without the rest of the protein which is what would actually be used to build muscle. This can apparently result in a slight catabolic effect. Your best bet is to consume a good quality whole protein in a reasonable window before and after training. If you really want this can be whey powder but a can of sardines does the job for me and also has many other nutritional benefits.

Beta Alanine is apparently 'sort of' helpful but also causes a strange 'hot flush' reaction in many users which can be distracting enough to put people off using it. I've not used it so can't comment further.

I can guarantee that simply ensuring you get around 30g carbs every hour (think a couple of bananas per session) plus whole protein before/after will have far more of an impact than anything else and it doesn't involve any weird powders and potions.

Oh. and don't try and 'balance out' the carbs at dinner unless you're trying to drop fat and tracking overall macro intake. Your body needs to replenish muscle glycogen to recover optimally, and besides this any carbs eaten in the training session will be used in said session. You're training, your body needs fuel.

Hope this helps.

[MischaHY]

P.S. if you're on Insta give this chap a follow: https://www.instagram.com/usefulcoach/

He's very science-oriented and always shares studies to back up his advice.

[wasbeen]

... whey protein shakes (I always go for the plain as the flavours have artificial sweeteners ...

Adding a teaspoon of Cacao powder tastes whey better than the premixed flavors.

[CrimpyMcCrimpface]

- Tyrosine... ? Seen this pop up in a couple of mixtures. Is apparently a pre-cursor / involved in adrenaline production.

I've been trying this as a nootropic recently and can't recommend it as a preworkout supplement. I've noticed that if I take it before I go out on the grit, though I'm in a great mood, I can't focus my mind and make beta mistakes. On Reddit, some people don't respond to it at all, some have withdrawal...

[SA Chris]

Chocolate Milkshake

[crzylgs]

Thanks all for the constructive input! 

@Mischa - Vit B complex isn't something I supplement but you're not the first source who has recommended it. I'm not veggie/vegan so should be getting plenty through meat in my diet but will consider it as a future addition to the pre-workout mixture. I'm also a big fan of the banana! Never go to the gym without one. My usual routine is banana + slice of fruit cake to fuel me through a session, however at the moment the fruit cake has been replaced by home made mince pies :D

Interesting thoughts re: BCAAs, I bought some (Bulk Powders 'Black Friday' prices were silly so no big loss) so I'll experiment with them. If i think they are negatively impacting I'll chuck them in with the post session protein shake to use them up! I'm not doubting you but out of my own curiosity do you have any sources for them being a net-negative? Seems to be plenty of (mis?)information floating around showing them in a positive light.

I did also get some Beta Alanine and can confirm the tingles. I don't find these distracting and if anything is a nice little message 'this shit is doing something' = its go time! Super anecdotal evidence but I had a superb session on Friday after taking my home brew concoction of Beta Alanine, BCAAs + Citrulline Malate

The vast majority of my diet consists of whole foods. My go to pre-session meal is usually scrambled or poached eggs, on whole brown toast with a random side veggie, usually broccoli. The whey comes in to get around the situation of driving back from the wall, not always having food prepared so might be up to 60mins before I start eating.

@ wasbeen thanks for the Cacao powder tip. My go to is to add a dash of vanilla extract and 1/2 teaspoon of sugar. I find the sugar helps bring out the vanilla and cuts though some of the whey taste and is absolutely delicious!

@ CrimpyMcCrimpface - i did't spring for the Tyrosine in the end and sounds like I did well not to. Will forget about this one for now.

[abarro81]

Why would you take beta alanine as a pre-workout supplement? The thing I've seen it studied for was always improving sprint performance at the end of an endurance exercise (after multiple weeks of loading, to boost carnosine or whetever it is that can act as a ph buffer)...

[crzylgs]

Should have clarified I do take the Beta Alanine daily (to load/constant supply) but on the 3-4 days a week I train I'll chuck it in to the potion while I'm doing that. You are absolutely correct about the theory of loading BA to boost carnosine production/function.

I believe there is evidence to show it has further reaching muscle building/strength gains rather than just the sprint endurance that you mentioned. This link isn't the best (I often saves all kind of links but haven't for this topic so quickly Googled it) but is a decent summary:

https://www.news-medical.net/health/How-Does-Beta-Alanine-Help-Build-Muscle.aspx

''As an effect, longer periods of high-intensity exercise is made possible and muscle, through physical activity, is built.''

High intensity being the key, not just endurance. On a similar line to Creatine supplementing, the theory being if it allows you to eek out 1 more rep or one more hard board problem. Then you'll physically gain from the extra work you were able to complete.

[MischaHY]

@Mischa - Vit B complex isn't something I supplement but you're not the first source who has recommended it. I'm not veggie/vegan so should be getting plenty through meat in my diet but will consider it as a future addition to the pre-workout mixture. I'm also a big fan of the banana! Never go to the gym without one. My usual routine is banana + slice of fruit cake to fuel me through a session, however at the moment the fruit cake has been replaced by home made mince pies :D

Interesting thoughts re: BCAAs, I bought some (Bulk Powders 'Black Friday' prices were silly so no big loss) so I'll experiment with them. If i think they are negatively impacting I'll chuck them in with the post session protein shake to use them up! I'm not doubting you but out of my own curiosity do you have any sources for them being a net-negative? Seems to be plenty of (mis?)information floating around showing them in a positive light.

Here is a detailed post on the subject: https://www.instagram.com/p/B52m52sD_9e/

But I've quoted the information here for ease of reading:

'A whole protein source provides all the "Branched Chain Amino Acids" along with all the other amino acids you need for growth and recovery. There are very convenient whole protein sources such as whey or plant-based protein powders which can be carried dry and made into a shake. BCAAs provide nothing that a whole protein doesn't.

If you are trying to stop muscle breakdown during training, you can simply consume some carbohydrate. Raising blood glucose stops muscle breakdown as you don't need to metabolise amino acids for glucose. Or if you don't want carbs to interfere with fat metabolism, then we have multiple studies showing protein alone does not impact fat metabolism during exercise. (~30g protein alone before training.) If you want to optimize recovery then consume a whole protein (~30g protein) post-training not just three amino acids. We actually have some research showing you can actually deplete body amino acids by consuming BCAAs alone as the leucine triggers muscle protein synthesis but you are providing no new amino acids for the protein building. So they have to come from somewhere.

Fundamentally BCAAs are a heavily marketed supplement that have almost no use anywhere. If you can think of one, a whole protein source will nearly always be the better answer.'

[MischaHY]

Why would you take beta alanine as a pre-workout supplement? The thing I've seen it studied for was always improving sprint performance at the end of an endurance exercise (after multiple weeks of loading, to boost carnosine or whetever it is that can act as a ph buffer)...

I only ever heard about it on the ClimbSci podcast and that was in the context of managing lactic build up in the arms (I also suspect that's simplification or I've remembered it wrong) - but they didn't seem overly bothered about and mentioned weird side effects so I decided to leave it alone with the rest of the weird powders 

[MischaHY]

Should have clarified I do take the Beta Alanine daily (to load/constant supply) but on the 3-4 days a week I train I'll chuck it in to the potion while I'm doing that. You are absolutely correct about the theory of loading BA to boost carnosine production/function.

I believe there is evidence to show it has further reaching muscle building/strength gains rather than just the sprint endurance that you mentioned. This link isn't the best (I often saves all kind of links but haven't for this topic so quickly Googled it) but is a decent summary:

https://www.news-medical.net/health/How-Does-Beta-Alanine-Help-Build-Muscle.aspx

''As an effect, longer periods of high-intensity exercise is made possible and muscle, through physical activity, is built.''

High intensity being the key, not just endurance. On a similar line to Creatine supplementing, the theory being if it allows you to eek out 1 more rep or one more hard board problem. Then you'll physically gain from the extra work you were able to complete.

Interestingly on the subject of creatine supplementation - I and a few other climbers I've spoken with have noticed a strange effect it has on pump. It's like the pump takes longer to kick in and then all of a sudden hits like a train and is super painful. After cutting it out I had about 2-3 weeks before it returned to the normal progressive pump that I could shake out from.

[Ru]

Interestingly on the subject of creatine supplementation - I and a few other climbers I've spoken with have noticed a strange effect it has on pump. It's like the pump takes longer to kick in and then all of a sudden hits like a train and is super painful. After cutting it out I had about 2-3 weeks before it returned to the normal progressive pump that I could shake out from.

Anecdotally, that's been mentioned for years.

[nai]

Espresso, banana and a vitamin B complex tablet.

So my pre climbing breakfast of banana and peanut butter marmite on toast with a Flat White is pretty much spot on. I knew it.

[MischaHY]

Interestingly on the subject of creatine supplementation - I and a few other climbers I've spoken with have noticed a strange effect it has on pump. It's like the pump takes longer to kick in and then all of a sudden hits like a train and is super painful. After cutting it out I had about 2-3 weeks before it returned to the normal progressive pump that I could shake out from.

Anecdotally, that's been mentioned for years.

It's interesting because the vast majority of nutritionists specialising in climbing seem to be recommending it. Has there been any formal study?

[Ru]

It's interesting because the vast majority of nutritionists specialising in climbing seem to be recommending it. Has there been any formal study?

I don't know. One of the first things I was told about creatine use was that it was useless for route climbers as it will make you pumped faster, about 20 years ago. I've not used it myself.

[Dexter]

Another thing to potentially consider is taurine. These are often put into branded sugary caffeine drinks^TM and there is some research to suggest improved focus with it. Maybe someone else from UKB knows more about it than I do though.

[SA Chris]

So my pre climbing breakfast of banana and peanut butter marmite on toast

That would keep my weight down, as I would be puking in a corner

[tomtom]

This may be an unpopular post but....

I find it quite shocking that this thread is contemplating all sorts of dietary 'supplements' to help people climb rocks. For sure - take training seriously - but to this level?? I'm presuming none of the posters here are elite rock athletes - so doesnt this all seem a bit overkill?

*shrugs*

[dunnyg]

word

[Paul B]

This may be an unpopular post but....

No. I agree.

It's interesting because the vast majority of nutritionists specialising in climbing seem to be recommending it. Has there been any formal study?

...is clearly a matter of opinion