[tomtom]

Probably wont work (FB link) but looks like blowtorching in Font..

https://www.facebook.com/bleauboulders/videos/2057589564515478/?fref=gs&dti=1566324270279682&hc_location=group

[Offwidth]

Also linked on UKC with some explanatory text.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/destinations/font_ethics_no_sand_under_your_climbing_shoes-682036

[tomtom]

Rather sad to see the BMC appearing to condone if not promote climbing on wet grit today on their IG feed....

https://instagram.com/p/BjhSpZvDe7p/

I’m sure this is off message but does feature #respecttherock....

[Offwidth]

The grit climbed today was dry. About the only dry grit they could find.

[Plattsy]

Was the mod climbed dry?

A better message would've been to go to the wall when it started raining.

[cheque]

The grit climbed today was dry. About the only dry grit they could find.

There were pictures (now deleted) of blokes in cagoules climbing clearly drenched trad routes with the caption “nothing’s stopping these guys”.

[user deactivated]

I thought climbing easy trad in the rain was a great British tradition?

[pigeon]

Hi everyone

As I was there, I’ll provide a bit of context, but maybe no answers. It was a local meet/festival organized by local climbers, so when it says “festival” think 20 psyched local climbers, not many hundreds being coordinated by a BMC machine.

The weather closed in. There was chat about whether to head to the wall, but some keen people led the way to Sadcocs (sp?) wall. This was bone dry and some people tried the traverses and the straight ups whilst most just watched, getting wet in the drizzle. A couple of guys, at one point, went off and did a Mod in their trainers.

So basically a pretty normal day. There are questions about whether the whole thing should have been cancelled, but then how do you “cancel” a few psyched locals from finding a dry bit of rock. One to discuss...

However, hands up, we played it wrong on social media. The guys there were keen to tell people a bit about it, promote Steve Macs talk, with an earlier time due to the rain and get people to the pub where we had prebooked a load of food. However, out of context those posts did send out the wrong message, especially a snap of the guys on the Mod, so as soon as I saw them (no reception at crag/pub), I took that pic down.

So it was all with the best of intentions, but we agree message looked wrong out of context, and we will put some things in place to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

I suppose the other question is that for years, we’ve all sought out dry bits of rock on a soggy day, but is it time to stop that? Or have you already stopped doing that? People do climb very easy routes in the rain for fun (I don’t) what are your thought on that? Probably a Summit or web article in all this, get in touch at alex@thebmc.co.uk if you’d like to get involved.

[tomtom]

However, hands up, we played it wrong on social media. The guys there were keen to tell people a bit about it, promote Steve Macs talk, with an earlier time due to the rain and get people to the pub where we had prebooked a load of food. However, out of context those posts did send out the wrong message, especially a snap of the guys on the Mod, so as soon as I saw them (no reception at crag/pub), I took that pic down.

So it was all with the best of intentions, but we agree message looked wrong out of context, and we will put some things in place to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

Great - I suspected that was the case.

[Will Hunt]

It was so obvious from the social media posts that there was going to be a negative reaction, but I do think it was overblown. A wet mod in trainers? Not something I'd get up in arms about. Finding dry rock under sadcocs. Fair play to them. The rock on the bouldering in the photos was evidently dry.

[andy_e]

It was not overblown, if the BMC are seen to be condoning climbing on wet rock, then that's bad. The distinction between a mod in trainers and Zippy's at the Plantation may not be entirely obvious to climbers less familiar with the outdoors. Well done Alex for acting quickly and getting it taken down.

[Offwidth]

The grit climbed today was dry. About the only dry grit they could find.

There were pictures (now deleted) of blokes in cagoules climbing clearly drenched trad routes with the caption “nothing’s stopping these guys”.

I arrived late so wasn't aware of the mod. My apologies for the misinformation. Still climbing  minor mods in the wet isnt an issue at all to me. Climbing lower grade trad in tne rain has a long history and is still common, and not just when caught out. Now, starting up polished 3 star grit in the wet is not to be recommended and boildering on wet grit is always a bad idea but the BMC has to be proportionate and telling people never to climb any lower grade routes in the rain in the UK would be ridiculous.

[PipeSmoke]

Telling people not to climb on wet rock would not be ridiculous. Suggesting it's fine because the route is easy or because it's off a lower quality is what's ridiculous. Just because it was acceptable maybe a few years ago doesn't mean it should be now and definitely not for the governing body to be promoting. Where do you draw this imaginary line, which routes are okay? Secondly, the rock once broken or worn is changed forever and for the sake of what? Just come back another drier day.
Just because it isn't an issue for you doesn't mean you should take it upon yourself to risk ruining the rock.
Some people didn't have an issue with chipping or bolting certain crags, doesn't make it okay to do without consensus.

[Offwidth]

I'm sticking with my view. The BMC also represents mountaineers and doing mod moves on the easier climbs/ harder scrambles in the wet or on wet rock is a normal climbing game for a bad weather day in the UK. You are not going to be breaking crucial holds on a mod and there is no three star mod on gritstone that we need to protect from the polish perspective (all the worst damage on lower grade grit 3 star routes was done with nailed boots on wet rock decades back). Protecting wet boulder problems (a good thing) by actively discouraging wet scrambles IS ridiculous.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Comparing wet scrambles on Welsh mountain rhyolite or Cuillin gabbro to NE grit/sandstone is also ridiculous. But fair enough individuals will play around on easier routes in the rain even on the grit edges. The problem is when the BMC starts promoting it. Its not just the action its the stage its on. And its not going to improve peoples image of the organisation...
Its another problem with climbing festivals too. As soon as youve organised something weeks ahead and invited dozens of people its very hard to call it off if the forecast looks bad (though they clearly should have..). I guess these events gain a bit of momentum. But instead of a day where you might have one team trying a wet mod, you now have dozens of folks who wouldnt be up there otherwise 'making the most of it' by climbing wet climbs/boulders. I

[tomtom]

I'm sticking with my view. The BMC also represents mountaineers and doing mod moves on the easier climbs/ harder scrambles in the wet or on wet rock is a normal climbing game for a bad weather day in the UK. You are not going to be breaking crucial holds on a mod and there is no three star mod on gritstone that we need to protect from the polish perspective (all the worst damage on lower grade grit 3 star routes was done with nailed boots on wet rock decades back). Protecting wet boulder problems (a good thing) by actively discouraging wet scrambles IS ridiculous.

Problem is - the IG post (and IG story posts) mixed up two blokes heading up a wet gritstone wall in full trad mode with Steve Mac and bouldering on a dry bit of rock whilst it was piss wet through everywhere else - all in the same post. So really the lines between all were well and truly blurred in my view.

Anyway - I think we're all agreed it was a social media mistake by the BMC and shouldn't have happened. non?

[Will Hunt]

I agree that it doesn't make sense to conflate volcanic with grit. But there is a distinction between very easy, ledgy climbs which beginners might enjoy going up in the wet and getting some mileage in, and gritstone bouldering where the holds are more fragile and are used more intensively. When I was relatively new to climbing I can certainly remember doing easy mountain routes in the rain and even going up some easy things at Almscliff (like Cup and Saucer) while we waited for the crag to dry out. Not something I'd enjoy now but it was fun at the time (in the kind of way that I imagine Scottish winter climbing through spindrift can be fun). I really don't think that we did any damage to the rock.

I think the real issue here is that the social media posts were ill-judged because some fool somewhere is likely to get confused and not be able to make the distinction between a VDiff and a V3. I suspect also that a lot (not all) of the people who were posting their dismay on social media (Choss Collective for instance must have been over the moon that there was a controversial thing to post about) were 50% concerned about the rock and 50% delighted that a bandwagon to jump on had landed itself in their laps. A great opportunity to signal your virtue.

As for organised events, I don't think this is a good justification for not having them at all, just for making sure that there is a suitable Plan B that is advertised from the start. In this case it might have been going for a walk (the BMC represents that as well I believe) along the edge, dropping down past Hellifield and then coming back towards Embsay for the pub stop and lecture.

[teestub]

I think the real issue here is that the social media posts were ill-judged because some fool somewhere is likely to get confused and not be able to make the distinction between a VDiff and a V3. I suspect also that a lot (not all) of the people who were posting their dismay on social media (Choss Collective for instance must have been over the moon that there was a controversial thing to post about) were 50% concerned about the rock and 50% delighted that a bandwagon to jump on had landed itself in their laps. A great opportunity to signal your virtue.

You must need a big telescope to see down from your lofty pedestal Will!

The issue is (as you rightly pointed out before having to score some points against lesser mortals) is that there nuance in the situation which is lost on Instagram and therefore can be easily misconstrued. It's not dissimilar to the pad stashing discussion previously - there has to be difference in between individual behaviour and the example and stance put forward by the BMC.

[tomtom]

The issue is that there nuance in the situation which is lost on Instagram and therefore can be easily misconstrued.

Exactly..

[cheque]

 

[Will Hunt]

I think the real issue here is that the social media posts were ill-judged because some fool somewhere is likely to get confused and not be able to make the distinction between a VDiff and a V3. I suspect also that a lot (not all) of the people who were posting their dismay on social media (Choss Collective for instance must have been over the moon that there was a controversial thing to post about) were 50% concerned about the rock and 50% delighted that a bandwagon to jump on had landed itself in their laps. A great opportunity to signal your virtue.

You must need a big telescope to see down from your lofty pedestal Will!

The issue is (as you rightly pointed out before having to score some points against lesser mortals) is that there nuance in the situation which is lost on Instagram and therefore can be easily misconstrued. It's not dissimilar to the pad stashing discussion previously - there has to be difference in between individual behaviour and the example and stance put forward by the BMC.

The big telescope is just one of the crosses that one must bear when one is right all the time... 

Anyway, I take your point. The reason I was making the case that the response was overblown was that the nuance was there to see if you looked closely before diving into the backlash. If it hadn't been there I'd have joined in as the organisers wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. I don't just defend the BMC on anything. I might be getting my Instagram and Facebook posts confused here, but I definitely saw caveats about the bouldering photos that clearly said that the rock being climbed on was dry and that people were only getting on with clean and dry feet.

That's not to say that the posts weren't ill judged because the reaction and chance for misinterpretation was entirely predictable.

[Bonjoy]

I’d echo what others have said. The BMC social media was ill judged and the backlash was inevitable. It’s important that the BMC as a representative body stays ‘on message’. My impression is that the organisers know and regret that they dropped the ball and will learn and not repeat the mistake. I also think that whilst it’s ill-judged of the BMC to post pics of people climbing a mod in the rain, the actual climbing of a mod in the rain is almost certainly fine if the climb is slabby on big round holds. It’s not really a matter of grade it’s a matter of hold type/shape. Yes the BMC should avoid shining a light on grey areas on a media where the context and nuance is lost, but also it should avoid making absolutist ‘thou-shalt-nots’ to climbers unless it is unquestionably necessary and proportionate. If that means once in a while a hold is broken when a less sensible climber fails to self-regulate I still think this is preferable to stopping people doing things which cause no harm on a precautionary basis. It also strikes me as potentially divisive when higher grade climbers whom it doesn’t affect promote a ban which only impacts lower grade climbers. My preference is that the BMC gives a simple message backed up with detailed advice which retains the nuance. In most instances climbers if given this sort of advice will make sensible decisions, the fact that inevitably a small minority will not is insufficient justification for attempting to create blanket bans, as if somehow the blanket ban will be any more effective at correcting the outliers any more than the advice was anyway.

[tregiffian]

I am probably misinterpreting bits of this thread but is it really infra dig and non-U to climb in the wet? Should Rick, John and I have abbed off Gimmer Chimney in 1973 when the rain came rather than serving as human drainpipes up to the top at which point out came the sun and Incy Wincy Spider...........

[mrjonathanr]

Yes, I'd say you were misinterpreting the thread. Climbing on wet sandstones risks damage that climbing on wet volcanics emphatically does not. How the BMC presents this in its feeds is the issue, the one in question was a bit careless, lesson learned I expect.

[Offwidth]

I agree the BMC post was unwise but only because of the fuss and the possible conflation, not because of the irrelevant damage to the mod. Boulderers and climbers on grit need to wake up to what is going on where serious damage is being done and think a bit harder about specific solutions rather than complaining about non issues and by being too general discouraging things that are simply not a problem. Cams on dogged 3 star classics are chewing up breaks, especially at softer grits like Birchen but also on 3 star VS on Stanage (have a look at High Neb Buttress). Numerous useful flakes that never should have had a cam behind them have been blown. Grit bouldering has been trashed in a few places from too much climbing on wet rock, long after people must have known it mattered, from Kebs to Newstones. Popular grit that stays drier is being trashed by overbrushing and dirty shoes. Problems look terrible at times due to excessive unneccesary tick marks and overchalking, even sometimes of footholds. The climbing of wet grit mods by bumblies is traditional, won't stop and in contrast does next to no measurable damage any more (unlike when nailed boots were still common.... I've pulled a foot depth of turf off a rarely climbed Laddow Diff and found almost mirror polish underneath). Perspective and preventing the real problems is the issue. Clear messages can be had: never boulder on wet grit; aways ensure shoes are clean; if the route is too hard get better and try again then rather than constant falls or doggjng that leads to grinding of cam placements.