[theemoominhunter]

 :please:was at Turkey Dip learlier week, didn't finish a route so stuck a screw gate in and lowered off. Went back last night to finish said route and the crab was gone. Just think it's a bit cheeky to pinch it when obviously someone's left it there for a reason. Are we all now pinching off each other? Why couldn't they have left it there? I'm very very local if someone fancies returning it

[Three Nine]

if id seen it, id have nicked it

[highrepute]

I guess because climbing is not allowed there they probably thought it best to remove it. I'd have done the same.

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[dave]

If had to leave a crab in to bail from a route then unless it was at the arse end of nowhere, or obviously at a bolt that others would also want to bail (i.e. impossible to dog past, hard crux before a runout etc) then I would expect it to be gone next time I went. Its hard to comment without knowing the route, but these days with the current access situations on Peak limestone I think removing unnecessary in situ crabs/draws is generally speaking to be encouraged.

[Bonjoy]

Ditto. If a single crab is left on a route in a position other than the belay or as an intermediate lower off on a roof then it is fair to assume it is litter and to remove

[theemoominhunter]

 No way bonjoy, that's a stupid argument. If that was the case, why didn't they do the decent thing and help me to remove all the actual litter in the cave at the bottom?

I was talking to the Enthovens groundsman there the other day, they don't care about climbing, just fishermen.

Also Turkey dip is well off the beaten track so the hole monsaldale Insitu gear thing doesn't matter.

It's simple really, someone took something that wasn't theres

[Bonjoy]

Not leaving unnecessary insitu crabs is not primarily an access issue, monsal Dale or otherwise. The principle is that we don't leave stuff hanging off the rock that doesn't have a good reason to be there. It's just climbers taking care of the places they use. Yes it is a good thing if cliimbers take away other people's    litter off the ground (as I guess you did after noticing it), but our first responsibility is to tidy our own stuff away.
The question of litter aside you still should have had some expectation of loosing your kit. Climbers regularly retreat from bail biners for many reasons, typically with no plan of returning to remove the gear. If all these were left on the off chance that the person who left them intends to return then the crags would soon be plastered in loads of rotting crabs. I've left bail biners before and I've taken a similar number of other people's away, that's how it works.

[theemoominhunter]

I know exactly how it works. It just really pissed me off.

It pisses me off that someone lifting a bail bina is being dressed up as some altruistic crag clean up when there's at least 4 bin liners worth of tins and old BBQ's left to go.

Basically, one of our own thought, fuck it, I'm pinching that

[abarro81]

If I leave draws in things I expect them to stay. If I leave a biner in a loweroff to make everyone's life easier I expect it to stay. If I leave a single krab on a random bolt in the middle of a route I wouldn't expect it to still be there when I went back... standard innit.

[theemoominhunter]

Low standard

[abarro81]

No, not really, people aren't usually coming back in that situation, and you end up with lots of stuck rotting krabs. Progress has a few like this - you'd need a bolt cutter to remove them as they're corroded shut and just get in the way

[theemoominhunter]

I'll leave a little tag on it next time telling folk when I'm coming back shall I?

[abarro81]

Just clipstick to the top and strip the route

[jwi]

It's really irritating to hang draws when there's leaver biners in the hangers. Especially on hard onsights. It's good form remove quicklinks and leaver biners when found.

[saltbeef]

this is standard form dude. if you leave a lone biner on something other than the chain then expect it to be gone next time you go

[theemoominhunter]

Love the justifications for theft. If it was scruffy to leave it in the hanger/might blow someone's onsite why wasn't it taken out and left at the crag?

I know it's at the other end of the spectrum but if you left your keys in the car and it wasn't there the next day........

The parallels are there

[tomtom]

So Moomin - how is someone coming to the crag - seeing a lone crab supposed to tell the difference between whether or not it's been a) dumped there as someone gave up and won't be back (meaning it's effectively litter and should be removed) or b) someone is coming back in the next couple of days to do the route again and wants it left there.

???

If it's dumped there it's littering - if someone takes it - it's theft? I'm not taking a side - just pointing out (the bleeding obvious) what seems to be solely dependant upon the crab placers aims - and unknown to anyone else coming along there...

Sounds like leaving a little message on it might be your best option!!

[andy popp]

I would never expect any gear I'd abandoned to simply remain there until I might come back to claim it. The ethic I grew up in as a climber is that if you abandon gear on a crag then you've renounced your claim on it - probably not legally the case, but it was clearly understood and cut both ways.

[theemoominhunter]

It's obviously not been dumped there has it.

I'm not that bothered about the loss of a 5 quid krab, I just started thinking about the principle of the thing

I suppose the right thing to do is either leave it at the bottom of the crag or put it back after your session

[andy popp]

It's obviously not been dumped there has it.

But you'd left the crag without retrieving it.

[abarro81]

What are you on about moomin hunter? 90% of bail krabs have been abandoned by people bailing who don't have a particular intention of going back, so no, it's not obvious that it hasn't just been dumped there, unlike a krab that's clearly useful for stripping a route or an insitu draw or a line of draws...

[Doylo]

I ab off expansion bolt hangars with a pull through or a stitch plate. Perfectly fine as the  ropes static on the edge of the bolt and saves having to leave a biner.

[Lopez]

I ab off expansion bolt hangars with a pull through or a stitch plate. Perfectly fine as the  ropes static on the edge of the bolt and saves having to leave a biner.

I know a guy who broke his arm when the rope got cut doing that... You are better off doing a reterievable sling abseil fpr the sake of a few more seconds setting up

[theemoominhunter]

You know what I mean Andy

Like I said, I'm not bothered about the bina. It is interesting to see how people dress up taking something that doesn't belong to them it's really that simple.

The ethics of crag booty have been around for years and I get it.

Love the 'taking dumped stuff away from the crag' angle, shame it doesn't extend to the many cans in the little cave. I'll leave some bags on the shelf on the right of anyone is feeling virtuous

[dave]

Question for the OP: you're soloing one evening at Stanage and you manage to get a random stuck nut or abandoned cam out of a crack (a fairly common occurrence if you go there). There's nobody else at the crag. You naturally take the nut/hex/cam home. By your standards you've just committed theft.

You seeing how this is bullshit yet?