[Richie Crouch]

I found close grip seated preacher curls with a bar until your biceps are close to exploding quite useful for making holding undercuts feel a bit easier, combined with a lot of indoor bouldering on steep stuff and setting board problems with lots of undercuts, shit feet and big moves. Drinking a bit less and being a light lanky twat helps too. Work the weaknesses.

[abarro81]

Dylan - I'm not suggesting Shark should be focusing on anything other than getting better at hard moves right now, I'm suggesting that, in my opinion, his approach to getting better at hard moves is not ideal for him. In particular, I think his focus on projecting, lack of variety in venues and lack of variety in training holds him back. IMO a more varied and open-minded approach would be more likely to reap rewards.

Btw, I'm convinced ancap can assist strength gains, especially when it comes to being strong over a sequence (I know Stu and Tom agree with this).

[rosmat]

Right, wasn't going to get drawn into this but.....

Firstly, I disagree with Dylan, I don't think this a pure strength issue.

Secondly, on the whole I agree with Stu and Alex regarding this issue.

Just my opinion but finger boarding should be used as a supplement to movement based training. In this case bouldering and hard ancap work. I'm not saying drop the finger boarding but simply that it should be in addition to your bouldering etc.

Regarding the supplemental stuff, if it were me, I would switch from Max Hangs to Repeaters for a while e.g. 3 months. If you are concerned about loss of Max strength during this period chuck in 1 session of Max Hangs per week as maintenance.

Following this you could move back to a higher ratio of Max Hangs to top up your recruitment.

Keep your training specific - the Oak isn't a 1 move max strength boulder prob.

Just my 2ps worth. Good luck.

[ianv]

This thread has left me very confused but I am reluctant to let go of an approach that is giving (training) gains when other things I have done haven't had anything like the same results. I think that unless I focus on these things on a basic level I will be forever skirting round my weak point which as you point out - is being weak.

Whereabouts exactly on the route does the max deadhang with 35kg feature. I must have missed that move out. I do remember the pulls on pinches and a share on a side hold. I remember it working my lats, biceps and shoulders much more than fingers.

You will not get strong by doing weighted hangs, just good at weighted hangs. I think you are wasting your time doing more of the same.   

Leach pissed the oak in an afternoon, at the time his training was rings, weights and bouldering.

[Sasquatch]

Lets get a couple of reference points.  When I think about training and climbing, I see a couple of things.  One is that you absolutely need a certain amount of strength to be able to climb something.  The second is you need the correct application of that strength.  Excess strength can OFTEN compensate for bad technique, but at the heart of it you do need some absolutely minimal amount of strength.  I.e. with "Perfect" technique how much strength is required. As you decrease from this "perfect", you need more and more strength to compensate.   I doubt that this is a linear trade-off.  I'd love for others to chime in. 

Shark, you're doing max hangs on the BM # 10 hold on Front 3 at +35Kg.  I've no idea how you are on other strength and core work.  You mention in this weeks powerclub that you:

eatswood. Quite a full-on session as had to keep pulling on to stay warm. Worked the crux bit for probably 2hours but still didnt sort out a slick sequence. Back felt trampled after.

If your back so that trashed, maybe focusing on that is the biggest bang for your buck.

For reference, when I maxed out on the max hangs this summer, I was doing 3-5 by 10sec hangs with 35-40kgs on the #10 slot on the BM2k.  I was doing 7C+ in under 30min and maxing out on 8A+ in 3-5 sessions.  I didn't think my fingers were my weak point, and yours are just as strong..... 

My question to  you is this:  Give your finger strength compared to mine, and your statement above, and the references from others, do you think it is still FINGER strength you're lacking for your goals?  Don't get me wrong I love the feeling of max hangs and the rush I get from seeing the tangible improvement, and hell, I'll keep doing them just for that joy, but when it comes down to improving my climbing.....

[shark]

Shark, you're doing max hangs on the BM # 10 hold on Front 3 at +35Kg.  I've no idea how you are on other strength and core work.  You mention in this weeks powerclub that you:

eatswood. Quite a full-on session as had to keep pulling on to stay warm. Worked the crux bit for probably 2hours but still didnt sort out a slick sequence. Back felt trampled after.

If your back so that trashed, maybe focusing on that is the biggest bang for your buck.

For reference, when I maxed out on the max hangs this summer, I was doing 3-5 by 10sec hangs with 35-40kgs on the #10 slot on the BM2k.  I was doing 7C+ in under 30min and maxing out on 8A+ in 3-5 sessions.  I didn't think my fingers were my weak point, and yours are just as strong..... 

My question to  you is this:  Give your finger strength compared to mine, and your statement above, and the references from others, do you think it is still FINGER strength you're lacking for your goals? 

Hi Sasquatch,

I'm gobsmacked that my performance on the #10slots is not far short of yours for front3 as you boulder 5 grades harder than me. All I can say is that most people are able to that move on the Oak with front3 whereas I can't (I have to keep my little finger seated in part of it as well - if it flicks out I'm doomed). It is also very fingery and undercutty reaching this move. I have only ever got through the move twice from the ground.

In terms of other obvious benchmarks I have previously done a one armer on a bar, done a 2x bodyweight deadlift and currently briefly hold a front lever. I have done steepish 7A's in a session at Font but never done any bloc problems harder than 7A+ but to be fair havent tried many.

I've had a lifetime of back issues but seem to have corrected the worst of it though it is still usually my back that feels most sore after a hard days climbing. Is this unusual?. I have worked on core and step up type exercises as a weak area and feel I've gone along way to correct this weakness over the last 2/3 years.

Throughout my career I have been told Im weak as in I cant do hard moves relative to my grade. I believe my technique (on limestone is good) but maybe not. Quite frankly something is making me crap at bouldering which I believe is mainly down to poor finger strength. If not what?   

With regard to eatswood traverse which I did in Feb although graded 7B+ in reality it is more like two long 7A+'s with a kneebar rest in the middle. Although a traverse it mainly climbs like a roof. I'm now trying the Reverse with a view to linking it as a 40+ move circuit. I think this will be a great ANCap PE workout as there are typically 8-10 moves seperated by average rests.

Here's a video of me almost doing the original back in January

 

Here's a redpoint attempt of me failing on the move. I do it subtely different now ie less lurchy with an inside edge on the right foot.



And here's rare footage of me getting thru the move last year


 

   

[davej]

hi Shark I've just watched your vid again as i said last year your strong enough be positive believe in yourself. Your going to do it for certain next year. 

[Stubbs]

Perhaps you got a few percent too pumped because you didn't take your watch off?!

To me both these failures look like endurance rather than finger strength.

[John Gillott]

Shark, you're doing max hangs on the BM # 10 hold on Front 3 at +35Kg.  I've no idea how you are on other strength and core work.  You mention in this weeks powerclub that you:

eatswood. Quite a full-on session as had to keep pulling on to stay warm. Worked the crux bit for probably 2hours but still didnt sort out a slick sequence. Back felt trampled after.

If your back so that trashed, maybe focusing on that is the biggest bang for your buck.

For reference, when I maxed out on the max hangs this summer, I was doing 3-5 by 10sec hangs with 35-40kgs on the #10 slot on the BM2k.  I was doing 7C+ in under 30min and maxing out on 8A+ in 3-5 sessions.  I didn't think my fingers were my weak point, and yours are just as strong..... 

My question to  you is this:  Give your finger strength compared to mine, and your statement above, and the references from others, do you think it is still FINGER strength you're lacking for your goals? 

Hi Sasquatch,

I'm gobsmacked that my performance on the #10slots is not far short of yours for front3 as you boulder 5 grades harder than me. All I can say is that most people are able to that move on the Oak with front3 whereas I can't (I have to keep my little finger seated in part of it as well - if it flicks out I'm doomed). It is also very fingery and undercutty reaching this move. I have only ever got through the move twice from the ground.

Hang on Shark and Sasquatch - are you sure you two are talking about the same BM holds? I can hang the large slots with 35kg for ten seconds (my daughter weighs that much at least):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39274742@N06/11400196653/#

But there is NO WAY I can climb anywhere near powerful 7C+ never mind 8A+. If we are all using the same holds then I suggest that as a measure of climbing performance if nothing else this is a useless benchmark.

[Luke Owens]

From the above post's it's looking fairly obvious that finger strength isn't the weak link here?

Shark, you said you think it's finger strength because you can't do the move with front 3 like others can but this may be because of numerous other reasons like body position, core etc.?

Have you seen others do the move, seen pictures/videos or asked them about how they do it?

Also as Sasquatch mentioned above you said your back was worked after your eatswood session. This may be a weak point that's affecting your core on the move on the Oak?

I remember thinking I couldn't do my project over the summer because one move halfway up was the living end; everyone else found it easy! It turned out a subtle change of the left foot was all that was needed and the move felt easy (no exaggeration, it felt easy).

Maybe something to think about but I know it must be difficult to change beta after trying a route for so long.

[account_inactive]

I have done steepish 7A's in a session at Font but never done any bloc problems harder than 7A+ but to be fair haven't tried many.

FFS

[Fiend]

LOL ^^^

[mr__j5]

When I watch the failure video it looks to me like there is nowhere near enough left bicep trying to keep you into the wall with the position of those legs.

As soon as you start to open the legs you are out the back door.

Of course, what we can't tell is whether your hand is opening up on you or not.

[Matt002]

Very usefull thread for me.  I have been using the MAW dead hangs for a while now and made great gains in the weight I can hang, but not much real increase in climbing grade.  I guess I have made a weakness into a relative strength, time to switch thing up a bit.  The measurable progress is quite addictive but as had been mentioned, hanging a large hold with weight is only going to be of limited value. 

[ianv]

Just looked at the vid, you just die! What you need is more:



and a bit more fighting spirit, I didn't even hear a grunt!

From a totally uneducated viewpoint, it strikes me as this Lopez thing is the climbing equivalent of the Atkins diet. A bit of a fad that might have some use as part of a wider regime, but stick religiously to the letter and it will be a bit shit. Particularly on routes that are not all about horizontal edges and pockets.

[davej]

Shark it's all in the name Austrian Oak eg Arni . Come out smoking with set of 25"  cannons route no problema!!!!!!

[ianv]

Just don't leave it too long 

[Fultonius]

We're all armchair experts here eh ;-)

From my armchair I agree that dead-hang finger strength will not help you succeed on this route!  If anything you should get a weight belt on and do some poor-foothold-uncercling power work on a 30 degree board.

I think your posterior chain (lower back, hamstrings, glutes) in conjunction with your biceps are crumbling which is preventing you from applying your new-found deadhang finger strength. I really, really don't think finger strength is the weak link here.

You need to "burl up".

[Nibile]

At 66 and out of shape, Arnold is still better than 99% of his peers.

[tomtom]

Just don't leave it too long 

This REALLY needs to be used in the "shit isnt that" thread....

[abarro81]

From my armchair I agree that dead-hang finger strength will not help you succeed on this route! 

For clarity, I hope that's not agreeing with me, since I don't agree with that statement.

[Fultonius]

From my armchair I agree that dead-hang finger strength will not help you succeed on this route! 

For clarity, I hope that's not agreeing with me, since I don't agree with that statement.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant working on just weighted deadhangs.  Anyway, there are plenty of more knwledgable people than me on here so I shall retreat to my position of watcher...

[chris j]

I think your posterior chain (lower back, hamstrings, glutes) in conjunction with your biceps are crumbling which is preventing you from applying your new-found deadhang finger strength. I really, really don't think finger strength is the weak link here.

You need to "burl up".

I am intrigued (this thread is fascinating by the way, especially as I just started adding in some weighted deadhangs in an effort to overcome weak fingers...) as following shark's Oak siege I understood the deadlift phase a couple of years back was an effort to burl up and strengthen the chain. I noticed on the 1st page of the deadlifting thread shark said he got up to 2x bodyweight and good gains on undercuts etc. Do you think he needed to go further with that? Shark, do you think you've maintained/gained/lost undercut performance since you cut down on the weights?

[petejh]

Shark, you're doing max hangs on the BM # 10 hold on Front 3 at +35Kg.  I've no idea how you are on other strength and core work.  You mention in this weeks powerclub that you:

eatswood. Quite a full-on session as had to keep pulling on to stay warm. Worked the crux bit for probably 2hours but still didnt sort out a slick sequence. Back felt trampled after.

If your back so that trashed, maybe focusing on that is the biggest bang for your buck.

For reference, when I maxed out on the max hangs this summer, I was doing 3-5 by 10sec hangs with 35-40kgs on the #10 slot on the BM2k.  I was doing 7C+ in under 30min and maxing out on 8A+ in 3-5 sessions.  I didn't think my fingers were my weak point, and yours are just as strong..... 

My question to  you is this:  Give your finger strength compared to mine, and your statement above, and the references from others, do you think it is still FINGER strength you're lacking for your goals? 

Hi Sasquatch,

I'm gobsmacked that my performance on the #10slots is not far short of yours for front3 as you boulder 5 grades harder than me. All I can say is that most people are able to that move on the Oak with front3 whereas I can't (I have to keep my little finger seated in part of it as well - if it flicks out I'm doomed). It is also very fingery and undercutty reaching this move. I have only ever got through the move twice from the ground.

In terms of other obvious benchmarks I have previously done a one armer on a bar, done a 2x bodyweight deadlift and currently briefly hold a front lever. I have done steepish 7A's in a session at Font but never done any bloc problems harder than 7A+ but to be fair havent tried many.

I've had a lifetime of back issues but seem to have corrected the worst of it though it is still usually my back that feels most sore after a hard days climbing. Is this unusual?. I have worked on core and step up type exercises as a weak area and feel I've gone along way to correct this weakness over the last 2/3 years.

No it's not usual, and I agree with Fultonius that your back issues are likely part of what's holding you 'back', if your fingers are as strong as you say they are.

Like you I've suffered over ten years of back problems. I just had surgery 3 months ago to remove an osteophyte which was catching on the nerve at L5/S1 and a large disc protusion pressing on the nerve at L4/5. I'd been avoiding surgery forever but this year it was unavoidable - I lost all strength in my big toe because of the nerve impingement and the leg pain was becoming unbearable.

Anyway...

My core for climbing - i.e. the larger movement muscles rather than the tiny stabiliser muscles and motor control of the said stabiliser muscles - has always been really good and one of my strong points in that I can stick my feet to the rock on pretty shitty holds on steep ground (relative to some other people I've watched). My larger core muscles were/are uber strong from years in the army, then instructing, rope access, re-equipping steep crags (this more than anthing is brutal core workout) and generally a love of hard donkey work.
I'm 3 months post-op now and have been seeing a kinetic chain 'corrective trainer' for 1-2-1 session, we're going through a pretty comprehensive re-learning of motor-control and strengthening of the very subtle spinal stabilsers and the whole kinteic chain from toes to finger-tip. Turns out my stabilser muscles and fine motor control is well whack on certain, very subtle, balance movements and I can feel it in my glutes not being able to fire when required - a legacy of 4 previous disc herniations and other back issues over the last 10 years.  I'd hazard a guess if you've suffered years of back trouble, but also have a relatively sedentary job involving sitting down and driving, then you're likely to have a worse core strength than me and thus harder time getting the most out of any strength-gains made on fingerboards etc. I haven't seen your vids yet (work block them) but I bet when I watch them your core won't be all that.

'Burl up' = code for stick toes and fingers to the rock like shit to a blanket. You need a strong chain from toes to shoulder to do that.

And I also haven't climbed the route you want to do but someone else's problems are always easier than your own.

[cheque]

this thread is fascinating by the way

  Needs a poll though.