[Johnny Brown]

The first clip Obi posted was from 2007, and this most recently posted one from 2009. There is some small amount of consolation, in that today, the track, although far different from 30 years ago, hasnt actually degraded much (subjective comparison) in the last 10 15 years of usage from what we see in the videos.

You've lost me there - only 15 years ago the track

the slabs up the top remain in place in all their glory

I don't mean on the moor top, they used to go right down to the section in the video above. This is not a forum that has many 'keyboard warriors' most of us are up here on a weekly basis. Unlike your one BOAT we have over a thousand routes to go at. Funnily enough that's why we care so much.

As Nige said, climbing bans are generally enforced by peer pressure - which works very well, and we don't need guns. Clearly there is an issue with using the same approach for your community, because you are in moving vehicles. Anyone who visits Stanage regularly gets to see both legal misuse (as in the video) and illegal - trail bikes through the plantation, quads on ringinglow bog etc. Having spoken to a few I have the impression they don't consider themselves part of any wider community that would be able to exert peer pressure. Unfortunately they are the public face of your user group.

[Bonjoy]

perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion.. who knows.. maybe its easier not to give a toss when everyone is on your back and just do what you are already getting blamed for? Either way it needs to start with people talking to one another, and not about one another.

So if we all pat you on the back and say thanks for your contribution to the landscape you’ll start behaving as model citizens? Pull the other one.
The closure of the track, if anything, has served as a test of your community’s cohesion and good faith. As a community you failed that test. You turn intellectual summersaults to justify your use of the track on the basis of law and then ignore the imposition of law when you don’t like the outcome. Blaming it on bad apples doesn’t help your cause, because it is clear that you cannot control this element of your group, even when under strong public scrutiny. As climbers have found on occasion, as a group you are judged by the actions of your worst element.

[Monk]

well there you have it right there...  the fukwit in all its glory. Shocking that he couldnt get his car through there any smoother than that.

I can't disagree with that - pretty poor.

The first clip Obi posted was from 2007, and this most recently posted one from 2009. There is some small amount of consolation, in that today, the track, although far different from 30 years ago, hasnt actually degraded much (subjective comparison) in the last 10 15 years of usage from what we see in the videos. and that the slabs up the top remain in place in all their glory (I only write this for the benifit of the keyboard warriors out there, who have not actually been up, It may be worth taking your lazy ass into the park before injecting more "fuck offs" ? )

I suspect that I am one of the people that you are referring to here. You have to remember that my first post on this thread was trying to add balance to the debate (stating that just because we can't understand off-roading doesn't mean others don't see value). It was only when I saw the videos that I was shocked so I said so. I moved away from the Peak in 2004, and although the causeway was fairly rough then, it was nothing like it is in those videos (and I realise that they are focusing on a small section of the road). I realise that I don't have the same level of say in this as those who are still locals, but I spent 10 very happy years frequently climbing and walking around Stanage, and the area is very close to my heart. It pains me that circumstances keep me away from somewhere I love and it is really sad to see places get trashed by anyone (walkers, climbers, off-roaders, whoever). This is my only concern; I am ambivalent about 4x4s in general.   

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

I realise that I don't have the same level of say in this as those who are still locals........

The consensus seems to be that it follows the route of a roman road around 1000 years old. Even if the surface wasn't the original roman laid cobbles, there are few remaining 'streets' in the UK. Like any ancient monument of "national importance", it is our civic duty to protect it for generations to come, irrespective of who we are or where we live in the country.

Reading up on the 'Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979' I'm surprised that it isn't used to prevent use by 4x4s...

28 Offence of damaging certain ancient monuments.

(1)A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any protected monument—
(a)knowing that it is a protected monument; and
(b)intending to destroy or damage the monument or being reckless as to whether the monument would be destroyed or damaged;shall be guilty of an offence.
(2)This section applies to anything done by or under the authority of the owner of the monument, other than an act for the execution of excepted works, as it applies to anything done by any other person.In this subsection “excepted works” means works for which scheduled monument consent has been given under this Act (including any consent granted by order under section 3).
(3)In this section “protected monument” means any scheduled monument and any monument under the ownership or guardianship of the Secretary of State [F84or the Commission] or a local authority by virtue of this Act.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or both; or
(b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.

[burned]

Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979'

You could be onto something!, but, when I spoke to Peaks Agency a year or so ago, it was pretty clear that the causeway is classified as a road, managed by the highways agency and funded by the council to which the lane belongs, and not a historical monument - it is subject to the laws like any other that runs anywhere else in the country with tarmac on it.

I see the problem here, and it seems that there are too many conflicting opinions all trying to resolve themselves;

opinion 1, this is a road, I have a right to use it, and I am not interested in anything more. The local council have a duty to maintain it blah blah....

opinion 2, I have a right to use the track, and I appreciate that somthing needs to be done to ensure that it is still there in the future.

opinion 3, this is not a road, and anyone who thinks that it is has no concience and should be openly hated by everyone, including those who share opinion 2.

opinion 4, fuck the world and the laws in it.

Pleasing one of the opinions will always leave the other three wanting more, and nothing will change unless everyone feels like they are getting something out of whatever progress is made.... Its a lost battle, the week I have invested in here have generated nothing more than hate and suggested nothing more than starting a flame war on the internet.

Bummer for everyone, nothing changes.

[Bonjoy]

You don't come across like you came here to have your mind changed. You come across like you came here to sell an entrenched position. You can't really then have a go at other people who are unpersuaded by your arguments and are therefore equally as unlikely to change position as you.
It doesn't strike me as the type of issue with a great deal of room for compromise either way. What kind of outcome were you hoping for?

[burned]

suggesting that lanes be closed is not warranted as "changing my mind"?, what a joke.

On the contrary, I think you are a little delusional believing that the 4x4 drivers have to give anything at all right now.

[Bonjoy]

suggesting that lanes be closed is not warranted as "changing my mind"?, what a joke.

You don't want to have lanes closed, ergo you would have to change your mind to accept otherwise. This is entirely my point. You want to drive this lane, virtually everyone else wants you not to. What compromise can exist which reconciles the two wants? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just saying I can't see any kind of compromise that could in any way satisfy the two competing wants. Can you? Hence my question: what outcome are you hoping for?

On the contrary, I think you are a little delusional believing that the 4x4 drivers have to give anything at all right now.

Please quote me making that assertion. I don't think I did. I've heard nothing to convince me you can be persuaded not to use the causeway voluntarily based on the weight of opinion against your tiny minority. Like you say, you don't "have to give anything" and I'm sure you won't unless forced to by the powers that be.

[burned]

it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails

or

perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion..

Of course here is a compromise, it is where damage is managable, just like any footpath, bridleway or cycle route - and the lanes are still accessable to all parties exclusively at different times of the year. But it does mean "everyone else" will not be getting all they want... does that in any way define a compromise?

I can say with certainty that a larger percentage of the offroad community are willing to make sacrafice and come to a compromise regarding the peaks,  than the "everyone else" catagory.. Facinating isnt it?

[Bonjoy]

it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails

or

perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion..

Of course here is a compromise, it is where damage is managable, just like any footpath, bridleway or cycle route - and the lanes are still accessable to all parties exclusively at different times of the year. But it does mean "everyone else" will not be getting all they want... does that in any way define a compromise?

I can say with certainty that a larger percentage of the offroad community are willing to make sacrafice and come to a compromise regarding the peaks,  than the "everyone else" catagory.. Facinating isnt it?

Great, so you are suggesting other users are barred from using the causeway for parts of the year. Good luck gathering converts here for that compromise! I think that’s called adding insult to injury.

[burned]

Hahaha awesome : ) I especially loved the part where you neglected to suggest anything! Enjoy your legal right to share the lane with us.

[Johnny Brown]

Of course here is a compromise, it is where damage is managable, just like any footpath, bridleway or cycle route - and the lanes are still accessable to all parties exclusively at different times of the year. But it does mean "everyone else" will not be getting all they want... does that in any way define a compromise?

I think other users would be right behind this (we do similar elsewhere) if it had some positive outcome - like the road regenerating during the close season, or producing young. Unfortunately that's where your plan falls down.

[GCW]

I especially loved the part where you neglected to suggest anything! Enjoy your legal right to share the lane with us.

There's a few aspects to all of this.  4x4s damage the Causeway.  I'm sure you won't argue with this.  From here there are two main issues.

1.  4x4s currently have a legal right to use the causeway.
2.  4x4 users have repeatedly demonstrated that they disregard any restrictions to use.  Your most recent comments purely reinforce this fact.

The former is an anomaly brought about by an ancient calssification as road and technology has moved on so that current usage does not equate to what was originally intended.  This can only be addressed by changed in status/ the law.

The latter demonstrates that there can be no compromises with 4x4 users.  They* repeatedly ignore restrictions/ go off road and damage peatland.  Since no compromise can be found, there are only two outcomes.  The law remains the same and 4x4 users continue to damage the causeway.  Or, the law is changed to make it illegal and any gung ho 4x4 users breaching the ban are prosecuted.

I suspect you can guess which of the two options most UKBers would prefer.


*at least some, but as pointed out previously one bad apple spoils the whole bunch

[burned]

 Your ability to generalize is fantastically warped, luckily its people such as yourself that enable offroading to continue as it does today, and make your peers seem equally as clueless as you..

You need to learn how not to be an ignorant dick and stop accusing innocent people of breaking the law.

For the record, there is currently nothing to prevent illegal offroaders from being prosecuted right now.

[Stubbs]

Can you point out the part where GCW accused innocent people?  He said 4 x 4 users have ignored restrictions and gone off road onto peat, he didn't say all 4x4 users.

I wonder if with a bit of publicity for a proposed change of law, 100,000 names could be got on a petition so that this can go to parliament?

[Johnny Brown]

For the record, there is currently nothing to prevent illegal offroaders from being prosecuted right now.

There isn't no, but prosecutions are vanishingly rare. Illegal use typically occurs at dusk and dawn, in vehicles with the plates removed. Its generally impossible to get police on site quick enough to catch them.

Video evidence is very useful, so don't be shy folks.

[burned]

Can you point out the part where GCW accused innocent people?  He said 4 x 4 users have ignored restrictions and gone off road onto peat, he didn't say all 4x4 users.

I wonder if with a bit of publicity for a proposed change of law, 100,000 names could be got on a petition so that this can go to parliament?

His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general, and mentions nothing about motorbikes. Good luck with the petition, I am sure the government will push that one straight through for you, go ahead and just fabricate any info or evidence you need so we can tear you a new one in court again.

[leeroy]

His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general

The latter demonstrates that there can be no compromises with 4x4 users.  They* repeatedly ignore restrictions/ go off road

*at least some, but as pointed out previously one bad apple spoils the whole bunch

Burned, do you not understand the *? or are you blind to smaller typeface? or most likely you should learn to read things properly.

Good luck with the petition, I am sure the government will push that one straight through for you, go ahead and just fabricate any info or evidence you need so we can tear you a new one in court again.

not sure evidence needs to fabricated with videos like that about. but im sure you can collect us some more "evidence" by going and trashing some more beautiful places 

[chris j]

His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general,

Burned, the climbing community has been through this in the past with the birding and wildlife lobbies. Outsiders to whatever pastime always see the bad apples as the norm and the well-behaved majority as the exception. There really isn't any choice for yourselves except to change attitude as a community and become self-policing and be seen to be stamping down on the idiots. 5 minutes on google last night (I was curious about the attitude to Stanage on the land rover forums and work is slow at the moment) lead me to someone saying how he'd driven up and down the Causeway for many years and the voluntary TRO wasn't going to change that. No responses saying 'don't be an idiot' or anything resembling condemnation.

The 'no-body likes us so f*ck em all we'll do what we want' attitude is very satisfying in the short term but in the medium - long term won't gain you anything.

[fatkid2000]

The vast majority of people who go into the peak moorland do so to escape things from the mechanised world such as cars. They don't expect to see 4x4 trashing areas of scientific importance. I doubt most 4x4 drivers really look at where they are.

Humans are trashing huge areas of the world, so places like the causeway & the peak need to be treasured for future generations.

The 4x4 community reminds me of the worst of the 80s: we can so we will. In their gas guzzling motors not considering the consequences of their actions.

[burned]

I appreciate the potential for damage up there as much as any of you guys, but the videos really only show one section of the lane that is really bad.

I appreciate that there are many hardcore guys out there that will fight to the death to keep the lane, and justify antisocial behaviour, but its not all of us, and it is very frustrating to be so powerless to stop it... and then be accused of doing the very things that disgust us so much. Furthermore it is the irrisponsable, and illegal drivers that are causing the problem, and like chris said, there are even the occasional ones that are prepared to say fuck the world in public, This is no secret, and it is naive to think that we dont have any in climbing or freeride either - I pisses me off that nobody said "oi, wtf mate.." but now I understand why..

Given how hard it has been to even come close to any sort of solution with anyone in here, I am going to give up the ghost on this one, enjoy the trails while they are still around, and leave the rest of the world to sort it out. I have suggested viable solutions to renovation, maintenance, funding and regulation of the lanes, pretty much everything short of the illegal aspect. It is selfish, but seeing as there has been no progress here, I cant see it being any different IRL.

[Nigel]

I have suggested viable solutions to renovation, maintenance, funding and regulation of the lanes, pretty much everything short of the illegal aspect. It is selfish, but seeing as there has been no progress here, I cant see it being any different IRL.

Yes you have and it is noted and appreciated. Unfortunately I think you will find that the vast majority of moors users will be in favour of a ban i.e. "the illegal aspect". Even if you could make your suggestions for living in peace work (which I doubt, as a community), fact is I suspect most people want no MOTORISED (I not you distinction betwenn 4x4s and bikes here, where I don't see one) traffic whatsoever. Herein lies the rub, and a rub which is heavily weighted aginst you I suspect.

[burned]

Cheers Nigel, if anyone has the power to change poilicy on the lanes, its the offroaders. Even with my liberal view on conservation, I am a realist, and know that there is no chance at all in convincing offroad users to commit harikari on this issue. If it is all or nothing, then nothing it shall be.

[GCW]

Your ability to generalize is fantastically warped, luckily its people such as yourself that enable offroading to continue as it does today, and make your peers seem equally as clueless as you..

You need to learn how not to be an ignorant dick and stop accusing innocent people of breaking the law.

For the record, there is currently nothing to prevent illegal offroaders from being prosecuted right now.

That's a very aggressive reply to a reasonable argument, and you call me a dick?  Interesting, it certainly helps you solidify your argument.  Maybe if you actually read what I have said then you would have a decent response?

His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general, and mentions nothing about motorbikes. Good luck with the petition, I am sure the government will push that one straight through for you, go ahead and just fabricate any info or evidence you need so we can tear you a new one in court again.

No it doesn't, it quite clearly states the bad apple principle.  I didn't mention motorbikes because nobody from the biking community has come on here and made any points.  I didn't feel it appropriate to finger point when they don't have the ability to defend themselves.

I appreciate the potential for damage up there as much as any of you guys, but the videos really only show one section of the lane that is really bad.

That's OK, as long as it's only part of the lane that is getting trashed.  Phew.

Cheers Nigel, if anyone has the power to change poilicy on the lanes, its the offroaders. Even with my liberal view on conservation, I am a realist, and know that there is no chance at all in convincing offroad users to commit harikari on this issue. If it is all or nothing, then nothing it shall be.

Interestingly, this is the point that I was making but somehow I'm an ignorant dick and you are just fucking awesome. 

It's a real shame, earlier in this thread you made some reasoned arguments but recently you've just talked shite and made yourself look foolish, which has completely negated all of your earlier useful input.  So maybe you are a typical off roader after all?

[andy_e]

I am going to give up the ghost on this one, enjoy the trails while they are still around, and leave the rest of the world to sort it out.

What a horrendous attitude. Do you make your mum pick up your toys after you've thrown them out of the pram?