[dave]

I hope I wont get flamed for posting on this, but its an issue thats been burning up inside me, and I feel the need to extinquish my angst. I think we should fire those involved, or give them a good licking as anyone else trying a damaged Zoo York would be gutted. In furnace though we should give them a chance to say their side, before we douse their arguments of what is clearly a highly flamable situation. They may be emberassed by it all...

sorry. serious topic n'all, couldnt resist...

I can see you're incandescent with rage.

[tomtom]

I hope I wont get flamed for posting on this, but its an issue thats been burning up inside me, and I feel the need to extinquish my angst. I think we should fire those involved, or give them a good licking as anyone else trying a damaged Zoo York would be gutted. In furnace though we should give them a chance to say their side, before we douse their arguments of what is clearly a highly flamable situation. They may be emberassed by it all...

sorry. serious topic n'all, couldnt resist...

I can see you're incandescent with rage.

I was, but now I'm glowing with pride after all your support. I tender my farewell.

[SA Chris]

on the lime

Pedant Chemist posting....

Limestone - Mostly Calcium Carbonate

When heated strongly Calcium Carbonate decomposes endothermically to give Calcium Oxide and Carbon Dioxide (an entropically driven reaction if anyone cares)

CaCO_3(s) -> CaO_(s) + CO_2(g)

Whilst the Calcium Oxide produced is solid it will lack any real macro structure and just crumble
Ok this only occurs above about 850 degs C but blow torches are getting more and more efficient so....

is it worth risking - NO

Chemistry aside, the simple physics are that anything that gets heated rapidly to a high temperature expands. If it's not flexible enough to tolerate the expansion (and contraction again upon cooling) it will crack and break. If this is done often enough it wil break most (all?) rock types. I will never be good enough to do Zoo York, but would like to think one of my offspring might get good enough to have a shot.

[dave]

And didn't the pocket on revelations break cos of blowtorching?

[fiveknuckle21]

I saw someone blow torching the pocket on Keen Roof a couple of years ago and I reckon that's bigger now. Maybe this is the result of the steely fingered breaking it down slowly over time but surely its culpable.

[benpritch]

And didn't the pocket on revelations break cos of blowtorching?

i believe it contributed to its demise.

[Probes]

Take a look at the greasey middle section of Longridge for an example of what blow torching does to grit/sandstone!!
This is fucking shit, on the surface, looks like this dude knew he was in the wrong by swiftly hiding the torch!     

[Andy Harris]

Interesting topic. Whilst clearly reprehensible these days blow torching was pretty common amongst spot climbers in the 90's. I can think of all sorts of people (gritstone heroes included) who blow torched limestone all the time but never came across anyone doing it on the grit. Whether it;s worse or not for grit than limestone I'm not sure but people just wouldn't have done it. Routes like Revalations, Make it Funky, Bastard etc were always being torched and probably wouldn't have had as many ascents if they didn't. I remember buying one and being really proud of it. Those hold in Tom's roof got a regular torching in the day but I wouldn't even think about it now.

Think the route cause is that climbing is a sport dominated by competitive (selfish?) driven young men who will do anything to get a tick. Whilst blow torching is probably at one end of the bad spectrum and reasonably rare these days it's no different to people climbing in the county or font after rain and often snapping holds because they are on hols / desperate to do something when you should walk away and leave it for another day. Same as climbing in anything but rock shoes, it's just not good for the rock climbing in clumpy approach shoes that break holds, slip taking off the surface etc etc

[moose]

Think the route cause is that climbing is a sport dominated by competitive (selfish?) driven young men who will do anything to get a tick.

I agree overall but it's not just the young.  Many of my worst experiences of selfishness on trad routes involve old men - beardy types in ron hills paddling mud all over climbs and destroying gear placements trying to extracate gear.  Same result but a different root cause I guess; with the young it seems to be willful ignorance of the effect of their desire for a tick.  With the old, more of a "this is how we've always done this" attitude; a stubborn refusal to change their ways to accommodate modern concerns. 

[yorkshireman]

small foothold missing off the bottom of zoo york,looks recent.i did the move without it so not essential and obviously cant say if its been torched or not.

[Johnny Brown]

Whilst blow torching is probably at one end of the bad spectrum and reasonably rare these days it's no different to people climbing in the county or font after rain and often snapping holds

Bollocks, no it is not. I don't consider over-enthusiasm on a par with the pre-meditated act of taking a damaging tool to the crag, and then using it.

Same as climbing in anything but rock shoes, it's just not good for the rock climbing in clumpy approach shoes that break holds, slip taking off the surface etc etc

We've had this before too, what bullshit. The dirtiness of your shoes is only related to your fastidiousness in cleaning them, not what pigeonhole you want to put them in. I've never seen a hold broken due to 'clumpy' shoes. I've seen plenty due broken to the force a modern down-toed shoe can apply to a small area.

Blow-torching has no place in the modern world where we take responsibility for the rock and other users. If you only see the crag just as a handy resource for your use and abuse maybe move somewhere where chipping is still tolerated too.

[yorkshireman]

climbing on the grit when its wet can have just as negative an effect as blowtorching can"

[Johnny Brown]

As can climbing on it full stop. In the dry, in rock boots, and holds still get broken, erosion still happens. Should we ban ourselves?

What we should be doing is drawing a big fucking line below what is out of order. Such as chipping, blow torching, car-jacking flakes to get cams out etc etc. Basically, if it involves a hand tool, fuck back off to the limestone.

[Jim]

as much as it pains me to admit it, I've got to agree with everything Johnny has said

[yorkshireman]

ofcourse climbing in general causes damage but some common sense like waiting while the rock is dry,cleaning your boots,not brushing too heavily or using too much chalk is good practice just like not using a blow torch or a wire brush.to say they are on a totally different scale just dodges the point that they can all cause equal amounts of damage.

[Moo]

I'd be interested to hear what peoples thoughts on comfortising holds are. By this I mean not improving them but perhaps taking a really sharp edge off a massive jug?

[tomtom]

I'd be interested to hear what peoples thoughts on comfortising holds are. By this I mean not improving them but perhaps taking a really sharp edge off a massive jug?

Isnt that the same as improving it??

just dont do anything that will damage the rock. Its simple really...

[Tom de Gay]

I'd be interested to hear what peoples thoughts on comfortising holds are. By this I mean not improving them but perhaps taking a really sharp edge off a massive jug?

Tape up or man up

[Plattsy]

I'd be interested to hear what peoples thoughts on comfortising holds are. By this I mean not improving them but perhaps taking a really sharp edge off a massive jug?

Used to be a hammer and chisel man but after watching too much Home Improvement I upgraded.

[SamT]

just dont do anything that will damage the rock. Its simple really...

What, like climbing on it.

Interesting to see how this one has run.  I, like AndyHarris, was reading this thinking, feck, I remember taking a blowtorch to the crag back in the 90's, Fossil Wall at Blackwell Dale, the good hold at the top of the hard section  was always sopping and 'pasty' at best - all through the summer. Wonder if it stays dry these days

Still, wouldn't do it on grit - ever (funny innit, how one type of rock is considered more 'hallowed' than another, thats in-equality that is)

 However, I think when it gets to arguing about whether toe down boots do more damage than approach shoes - we are perhaps getting a bit anal.

I've had  a ten year lay off from climbing and am just getting back into it, and without wanting to sound all 'grumpy old man' the state of places like the plantation and all the popular spots is unbelievable,  I nearly cried when I say R.Unconquerable, its fooked. Just take a look at the deliverance side of the pebble.  Fact of the matter is, climbing and bouldering, no matter how sensitively its done,  is wearing out the grit faster than you'd like to imagine. Holds will break, gear placements will become shot, patina will wear out, its all fairly inevitable.
 

Still no excuse for blow torching a hold that will probably be dry of its own accord in a couple of days time.   
 

[Johnny Brown]

to say they are on a totally different scale just dodges the point that they can all cause equal amounts of damage.

I agree they are on the same scale. And of course 'scale' implies that one is worse than another, and we draw a line on it as to what is totally unacceptable. Can we not agree blowtorching is beyond the pale? Just because damage can occur from responsible behaviour shouldn't excuse irresponsible behaviour, even if it doesn't cause damage.

[tomtom]

just dont do anything that will damage the rock. Its simple really...

What, like climbing on it.

Yup. If you go to Bridestones when its wet - or some places where the rock is soft when wet (the base of the Arete at Higgar spring to mind) then you're going to damage it. I think most careful climbing (clean feet etc..) will cause very very little - if any- damage...

Interesting what you said about Plantation... I'm not disagreeing with what you say but from my perspective, most (not all but most) Yorks and Peak grit is pretty resistant to physical erosion (e.g. from hands/feet) - and one thing that amazed me was that when I moved back to Yorkshire and re-visited former stomping grounds like Almscliff, was how it all seemed pretty much the same! Some stuff was still horribly polished - but many many things were - well the same! Ground erosion is a different matter.....

But - to add something to your points about lime, the peak lime (and other places like the Cave) have holds that are wobbly, loose and places where chunks/holds fall off. Maybe the more 'temporary' nature of some limestone (though not all - esp not the water crafted features) makes it seem 'less of a crime' to alter....

[Andy B]

But - to add something to your points about lime, the peak lime (and other places like the Cave) have holds that are wobbly, loose and places where chunks/holds fall off. Maybe the more 'temporary' nature of some limestone (though not all - esp not the water crafted features) makes it seem 'less of a crime' to alter....

It's no 'less of a crime' to alter limestone than grit or any other type of rock. Holds fall off the grit, and change in more subtle ways, all the time. Likewise blowtorching. There is no need for double standards here and implying so just serves to further blur the fact that blowtorching should have no place in climbing today.

[saltbeef]

what andy said.

[miso soup]

Flames at 2:12.  I thought this was interesting at the time, Big Up seemingly have no qualms about it but they cut American Gangster after the chipping scandal.  Chipping would be more of a crime than blow-torching, and this one seems to be set to a relatively low heat, but it still made me go 'WOAH WHAT THE FUCK' when I first saw it.  Does the US share Poland's ethical standards?