[kilgore1080]

Thought some of you lot might be interested (assuming its not been linked before!)

http://www.moonclimbing.com/MOONBLOG/Article:%20What%20Grade%20does%20Britain%20Climb-n-976.html

PS: Not really sure where it should go so feel free to move it to a more appropriate home mods.

[lagerstarfish]

lacked the everyman appeal and bonkers charisma of Cloggy’s famous helmet-boiler

managed to stop Adam Ondra, the world’s strongest repeater, dead on his broomstick

But have hope, little nation

steel-clawed knowledge-monger Rupert Davies

 

[ianv]

When I was fit I used to go to Malham and sport climb. Grit was just something I did when I was injured

Someone ought to post a link to that article on UKC

[Muenchener]

I'm willing to risk a puntering here(*) for venturing to suggest that Britain might lack world class sport climbers because it lacks world class sport climbing. See the recent Malham/Kilnsey grades thread, from which I formed the strong impression that the British - or at any rate the English - sport climbing population spends its time trudging up & down the same few dozen routes on the same half a dozen crags, presumably all polished to death by now.

I take the author's point about Hard Grit headpointing being a dead-end niche, but that doesn't completely take away the fact that what's wonderful about British climbing is what's unique: sea cliffs, mountain trad etc. As an expat (punter) who lives two hours form the Frankenjura in one direction, three hours from the Dolomites in the other, I see absolutely no reason to ever contemplate a sport climbing trip to Britain. Even if I some day reach a standard that would be relevant at Malham or Kilnsey, they aren't the places I would choose to go to climb at that standard. Fly to Yorkshire? Or fly to Sardinia? Or drive two hours to Chinesischer Mauer or Schleier Wasserfall? Hmm ...

Whereas a nostalgia/comeback trip to Llanberis for a week of Welsh trad is something I'm definitely contemplating some time in the next year or two.

(*) especially since in real life I can't be any more of a punter than I already am

[TobyD]

Fly to Yorkshire? Or fly to Sardinia? Or drive two hours to Chinesischer Mauer or Schleier Wasserfall? Hmm ...

having been to three of those places (not Schleier Wasserall), I'd contend that actually the best harder sport routes of the three are in Yorkshire. And definitely better beer too.

[ianv]

I think the important point was not about the quality of the routes per se, but about the attitude of the general climbing community.

I stopped climbing in about 92 and at that time the real action was sport climbing and the most respected climbers were those doing the hardest routes, getting good comp results etc. Difficulty and physical ability were held in high regard (as they should be IMO).

When I started looking at climbing again way over a decade later I was amazed that this was less in evidence and people I remembered as  fairly average climbers were lauded because they had repeated some fairly easy but necky thing in wales or the peak. Just taking the Ondra visit last year, he kicked the ass of the british climbing scene pretty much but the UKC posse were going on about it being a pity he didnt prove himself on grit/trad. It was sad, but progression had become untrendy and there was little general appreciation of physical awesomeness. Hopefully Ben is right and this is changing.

[Muenchener]

Yorkshire ... definitely better beer too.

Compared to Austria, yes. But if we were comparing Yorkshire beer to Frankenjura beer ... jawohl!

[Muenchener]

The point I was struggling to make, though was: where is this

physical awesomeness

going  to be developed / displayed? People for whom it is relevant seem to say that there isn't that much quality climbable-at-9b rock in the world, and only a tiny fraction of that small amount of rock is in the UK. The action - with concomitant development of the attitude - will happen where the opportunities are.

It was also apparent to me in the early 90s that one thing that was going to happen was people taking the new strengths & skills from easily accessible single pitch climbing into bigger, more remote arenas, and that has definitely happened with long hard free routes on remote big walls all over the place: Greenland, the Alps, Madagascar ... (not to mention Ben Nevis). Single pitch 9a is one avenue of progression from single pitch 8c; multi-pitch 8c on an Alpine wall is another.

[ianv]

physical awesomeness

Is one of those things that can easily be taken on a plane, boat, car etc.

[Doylo]

Good article. In terms of sport climbing we are lagging behind a bit, we have had an increase in 8c climbers recently but thats fair game for an onsight for certain French schoolgirls these days.  8c is a great level to reach but its no longer cutting edge (just look how many get registered on 8a.nu every week). 9a seems to be the new hard entry level and we only have two climbers currently operating at that level.  I don't know if hard grit's to blame or peoples preference to go bouldering but it seems to me that most people i know don't train quite as hard as our top boys in the early 90s. I can think of quite a few climbers who i'm sure could of climbed 9a with the intensity of training that Moffatt/Moon used to put in. Maybe i'm wrong there and maybe we have less climbers these days with the desire and willingness to live on a shoestring and live and breathe climbing.  I don't think the climbing here is to blame, we have loads of hard testpieces in Britain now and if you live here you can get the conditions regularly enough.  Ok most of the 9as are crimpy horror shows (15 metres of 7a moves on crimps isn't to everyones taste!) but i'm surprised stuff like Rainshadow doesn't get more attention (Mcclures easiest 9a apparently, great style,briliiant, steep etc).  The increase in bouldering standards proves we've got the talent to cut it, i think there's just been a shift in peoples focus.

[Paul B]

having been to three of those places (not Schleier Wasserall), I'd contend that actually the best harder sport routes of the three are in Yorkshire. And definitely better beer too.

I've been to Schleier (amongst a few of the others) and its evident from the polish that its visitors do exactly as you described 'trudging up the same handful of routes', the left hand end is basically dirty due to lack of traffic and the RHS is like a scaled up pinches wall in terms of polish (I've never had to pinch a jug so hard!).

I've now been to a fair few of the top European venues and I'd say that we DO have world class sport/bouldering, its not the best (ala Ceuse/Font) but it is up there with the best of them.

[Jaspersharpe]

Great article grimer. 

[Stubbs]

We may have world class sport climbing, but we certainly don't have the climate to go along with it.  We have to remember that Harry Potter was very lucky during his visit, and he could have equally been forced into lapping a wet Raindogs.

Great article Grimer.

[grimer]

ah thankee y'all   

and thanks to Ru and Stu for help too

[Doylo]

Yeah but if you live here then you don't have that problem. Malham, Kilnsey, Tor and LPT are climbable for long periods each year

[Stubbs]

I would disagree, they may be climbable for 'long periods' some years, but they are not reliable like many of the Euro crags.

[Doylo]

Spain is too hot from mid March to October, Ceuse is March - October. I know what you're saying and we do have more of a seepage problem in the UK but there is still ample opportunity each year to get on the hard routes.

[chummer]

Surely Doylo the weather and conditions play a big part, and I'm not just talking about Le Diamond, mixed in with having to have a full time job or sorts, getting it all to work on your days off is a lottery.

 I mean I think it's incredible Steve Mac finished half of his projects given the battle with conditions and weather. In fact, when you think about it how many hard (for you, by that I mean all of us....'the pack') sport routes that are within your ability have you not been able to polish off as quickly as you could due to the weather/conditions; meaning that you don't move onto the next harder route as quickly therefore stifling your progression.

Also there isn't a big enough market in the UK to provide hard cash for sponsorship so the motivation to work all out at it to be the 'best' isn't necessarily there at the top end, they may as well just be 'very good' and have a good time instead.

[Jim]

this argument has been done to death many times.

Back on topic, good writing Grimer, I nearly always enjoy your articles

[ianv]

Yeh, excellent article. Sorry I got the author wrong.

[Tom de Gay]

Great article, though a catchier title might have been something like 'British Standards, Shit, or Not Shit?'. To consolidate your argument you could have had a wobbly then gone and climbed 9a.


On a more troubling note, did anyone see that Fitz Roy article on the Moon site? Not even a bouldering pad in sight.

[Moo]

I think we'd be taking trading blows more frequently with the euro heavyweights, if our top dogs kept at it, we've lost Simpson and presumably Landman. I don't think your gonna see Ondra give up any time soon so why do these guys give up, it seems like madness to me as I'd love to have an tenth of their talent on the rocks. Maybe it's that when people get to that we level we just put them under immense pressure cause we're so obsessed with who's the best?

[chummer]

this argument has been done to death many times.

Back on topic, good writing Grimer, I nearly always enjoy your articles

Which one Jim? The lack of sponsor cash or the weather/conditions? Either way they relate directly to Grimer's piece that's why they they came up again Shirely? It was always on topic even if it is a repeat...I'm boring myself now..

[abarro81]

I can't remember what I wrote on the old British Standards thread, but a couple of thoughts from having spent most of the last 6 months in Spain:

Maybe it's just me, but the stuff out here inspires you to want to get better in a way that a lot of stuff back home doesn't. You go to Santa Linya and you instantly want to climb all the way out of it by the biggest, coolest, steepest lines - 8c+ or harder routes. Go to St LLorenc and the coolest line is the 8c. Go to Margalef and the coolest lines are hard. Go to Ceuse and lots of the coolest lines are hard. Then you got to the tor and Mutation looks less inspiring than Chimes, and the best looking part of the crag is the left hand side where nothing's harder than 8a+... Sure, North Butress is inspiring, and there are places that don't fit the rule in Europe, but I've certainly found that in Europe the coolest looking things are usually the hardest things and in the UK that doesn't apply to the same extent (at least as far as sport climbing goes). Didn't Stu try rainshadow because he couldn't find an 8c+ he wanted to do enough? Doubt he'd have that problem out here.

On a similar note, out here it's easy to be inspired because it's easy to believe that climbing harder is possible - there's more people climbing hard, which makes the harder stuff seem more approachable and the big numbers more doable. These aren't necessarily the locals, but at the popular crags in Spain or France you'll see the strong boys (and girls) from the rest of Europe, Japan, the US etc. People always tell climbers stuck at, say, HVS that one good way to get better is to climb with better climbers - you learn things and the fact that they all think E5 is fine helps you not to put routes/grades on a pedestal. I think that applies at the higher grades too.
In addition, for those of us that like link ups because they make things seem possible there are places like the cave: you do your 8b+ so you try the extension. Then there's the extension to the extension. Then the harder start into that extension. It's like the right hand side of the tor or parisella's in its addictive quality, but for the route climber. And better.

Also, some of the stronger, more basic climbers are likely turned to bouldering more than they might be in some other countries due to nature of UK sport limestone - very sidepully, undercutty, shit-foothold orientated climbing, with not much of the steep, gymnastic style stuff. It feels like there's more in this department for the boulderer than the sport climber in the UK, so those who might be hitting the short, hard, basic routes in Spain/France go bouldering in the UK instead.

[Paul B]

Ceuse is March - October

I climbed at Ceuse in December, the main difference was that instead of starting at Cascade to hide from the Sun you could enjoy it and work the opposite way. It was very dry.