[Andy B]

My opinions:

Kudos (either way) 7b
Kudos original (using the original smear foothold out left) 7c
Kudos Sitter 7b+
Bigger Tail 7a+
Bigger Tail Sitter 7b+
Kudos Traverse 7a+
Johnny G 7b+ (using the holds as you would get them as part of  Bigger Belly makes this harder, but from standing you can work your hands into much better positions for the jump).
Bigger Splash Direct 7b/+
Tsunami Eliminate 8a
Bigger Splash Right Sitting 7c+
The Pinch 7b+
The Press 7b+
The Press Kneeling 7c+
The Press Right Sitting 8a (if this gets down graded you should just take out the kneeling start, as if the sitter adds nothing you may as well do it from a proper start.)
Bigger Splash 7a+
Bigger Prize 7a


Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method. In relation to other problems: would Superman get 8a+ in other areas?, and which magnesium limestone 8as is it easier than?

Dancing Fish: Is this just a morpho eliminate or is it the line of The Pinch from sitting? ie. could you theoretically match the pinch hold? (I haven't tried this, just wondering if I should bother?)

[a dense loner]

Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method.

what on earth are you saying? are you trying to suggest this may be 8a+? you've said you've only tried it, this implies you've not done it yet you seem to have an opinion about it's grade, yet you agreed with tim. i don't really know what to say

[monkey boy]

Dancing fish is the sitter into the pinch and finishing up bigger tail. You could do it matching, although this would be nails! It looks like a massive move and obviously it is easier if you are tall (when is it not ) but it is definitely possible for a lot of people. Think a lot of people look at the move and dismiss it. Its good though and should get done more often, plus you get to rumble up a little higher!

[nik at work]

Dense you turnip you should read what people actually post rather than what you think they post.
Tim made the point that it's hard to justify a claim of easy for the grade if you haven't done a problem, which seems pretty sensible and I tend to agree with although will concede there will be exceptions.
Obviously if you haven't done something and it is of a grade that you feel you can climb then a claim of hard for the grade makes sense, again there will be exceptions.
Come on, does this simple shit really need explaining in such explicit detail?

[Doylo]

Dense you turnip you should read what people actually post rather than what you think they post.
Tim made the point that it's hard to justify a claim of easy for the grade if you haven't done a problem, which seems pretty sensible and I tend to agree with although will concede there will be exceptions.
Obviously if you haven't done something and it is of a grade that you feel you can climb then a claim of hard for the grade makes sense, again there will be exceptions.
Come on, does this simple shit really need explaining in such explicit detail?

What was that?

[monkey boy]

A problem that is not mentioned on here but should definitely go in the guide is the pinch but to the bigger splash jug rather than the side pull. Ned did it last summer but think someone said Miles might have done it to, whatever but it is a good move, probably about 7c+.

[Andy B]

Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method.

what on earth are you saying? are you trying to suggest this may be 8a+? you've said you've only tried it, this implies you've not done it yet you seem to have an opinion about it's grade, yet you agreed with tim. i don't really know what to say

What Nick said. Cheers.

Plus, at what point did I suggest a grade for this? You've just made that up to fit your rant.

Stating that you think a problem you haven't done is harder than (part of) a problem you have done is not the same as stating a grade for something you haven't done.

Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.

[Scouse D]

Lee, can I point you in the direction of your post from the sweet thing thread....

to be honest i agree with johnny. i tried it years ago with brad of brads wall fame. nearly latched the top move, a lot, and i can't jump out of a bunched position. johnny however can, the top move had never seen 8a, i would have been quite happy to tick 7b+ for it, maybe 7c.*

(In case that's too cryptic you seem to be suggesting a grade without doing something.)

[abarro81]

Kudos Traverse 7a+

I'd forgotten about this.. I'd definitely say 7a+ rather than 7b. I think it's the easiest problem on the wall except bigger splash. Certainly easier than kudos or bigger tail IMO.

[The Sausage]

I'm sorry, but OF COURSE you can have a valid opinion of a grade without having completed a problem/route. As human beings we are very good as using our past experience and integrating all manor of different information and variables to make judgements. If a person has sufficient experience, and has spent sufficient time on a problem, and has done all the moves and some decent links, they can formulate an opinion as to how hard the porblem will be. We're not gerbils.

What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.

[Adam Lincoln]

What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.

This is my biggest bug bear in climbing. Locals getting stuff wired then downgrading it.

[Jaspersharpe]

Once again I am in complete agreement with The Sausage.

[dave]

So just to summarise then, we've established that whether you've done a problem or not its perfectly possible to have a completely valid or totally invalid opinion of the grade. Glad we cleared that one up.

[shark]

Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.

Not always. Recently someone (who has done it) claimed, in all seriousness, that the Prow at t'Tor is French 7a+.

Most climbers wouldn't even have to fail on the Prow but merely look at it to arrive at a more accurate grade.

Not the best example as its a route rather than a problem I know. 

[Andy B]

Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.

Not always. Recently someone (who has done it) claimed, in all seriousness, that the Prow at t'Tor is French 7a+.

Most climbers wouldn't even have to fail on the Prow but merely look at it to arrive at a more accurate grade.

Not the best example as its a route rather than a problem I know.

That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.

I'm sorry, but OF COURSE you can have a valid opinion of a grade without having completed a problem/route. As human beings we are very good as using our past experience and integrating all manor of different information and variables to make judgements. If a person has sufficient experience, and has spent sufficient time on a problem, and has done all the moves and some decent links, they can formulate an opinion as to how hard the porblem will be. We're not gerbils.

You can, but as I said before, in my opinion it will hold less weight than someone who has actually done the problem.

What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.

as you've just said, we're not gerbils, and as such should be able to take this into account when offering grade opinions.

[Paul B]

it often isn't the case though is it? People who have things wired think they're easy.

Even when people aree going well and things feel easier its a much easier assumption to go for "thats soft" than "I'm a Hero"...  couple that with pseudo modesty and you're unlikely to get a true reflection of anything.

[shark]

That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.

It was an illustration that some peoples opinion irrespective of their experience of a problem or a route can be wayward. Polling opinion is the long term answer when there are enough to poll. Grading is best done by consensus - the bigger the sample the better. 

In terms of an individual judgement personally I would weight an opinion on a grade more on how experienced and reliable the person was who gave it rather than what style they had done or attempted a problem or route. You would also tend to factor in morphology, their stengths and weaknesses and how much below or above their normal grade they werre commenting on especially if intending to have a go yourself.

Relative levels of steely finger strength is I would think a big factor in swaying opinion one way or the other at Kudos Wall - but as I have only failed on Kudos what would I know!!    

[Jaspersharpe]

Sort your quotes out IO#1!

So just to summarise then, we've established that whether you've done a problem or not its perfectly possible to have a completely valid or totally invalid opinion of the grade. Glad we cleared that one up.

Exactly.

[Andy B]

That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.

It was an illustration that some peoples opinion irrespective of their experience of a problem or a route can be wayward. Polling opinion is the long term answer when there are enough to poll. Grading is best done by consensus - the bigger the sample the better. 

In terms of an individual judgement personally I would weight an opinion on a grade more on how experienced and reliable the person was who gave it rather than what style they had done or attempted a problem or route. You would also tend to factor in morphology, their stengths and weaknesses and how much below or above their normal grade they werre commenting on especially if intending to have a go yourself.

Relative levels of steely finger strength is I would think a big factor in swaying opinion one way or the other at Kudos Wall - but as I have only failed on Kudos what would I know!!    

All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy, and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.

[shark]

Sort your quotes out IO#1!

I kept trying and lost the will to live. Soz.

[Andy B]

Something wierd seems to be going on with the quoting. I've tried to change that twice, and I'm pretty sure I've got it right, but it keeps posting like that?

[Jaspersharpe]

All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy, and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.

Who was doing that though? Also, as I tried to point out in an earlier post, there is a difference between "declaring something easy" and saying that you believe it to be a certain grade (and "hard" or "soft" within that grade).

I can see why someone would be frustrated with someone else saying that a problem they've done is piss when the second person hasn't done it but that's not the issue. It's just about having an opinion of what grade something is and I agree with shark that there are other more pertinent issues to consider when (weighing up if someone's opinion is worth considering or not so much) than if they have completed the problem or not.

Sometimes those that have may have more of a vested interest in inflating or deflating the grade!

Something wierd seems to be going on with the quoting. I've tried to change that twice, and I'm pretty sure I've got it right, but it keeps posting like that?

No you two are just dicks. 

[Andy B]

All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy , and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.

Who was doing that though?

I thought this was more of a general discussion than specific to this thread, but if you would like examples from this thread: Joe, Dave (and maybe you, or have you done all of these problems? {genuine question, not just being arsey})

as I tried to point out in an earlier post, there is a difference between "declaring something easy" and saying that you believe it to be a certain grade (and "hard" or "soft" within that grade).

I should have been more explicit: I meant easy for the given grade, or easier than the given grade.

Sometimes those that have may have more of a vested interest in inflating or deflating the grade!

Absolutely, but that is a different issue.

Dick.

[a dense loner]

your first paragraph doesn't make sense andy. what are you saying? joe n dave haven't done all the probs so have no valid opinion? you're asking jasper sharpe, not wanting to go down on him but you're asking jasper fuckin sharpe if he's done something before you'll listen to his opinion? not being arsey just asking. plus i didn't fit words on you suggesting 8a+ for that problem to fit my rant, you said the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, in simple english this implies that the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, oh wait, substantially harder, 8a. whats next?
can't make any sense of your post either scouse. bringing up a quote of me saying sweet thing was never 8a but not doing it only goes to reinforce what i've said many times. you don't need to do a problem to know what grade it is, or is not. i know its not 8a i don't need anyone else's opinion, and if someone tells me it is 8a i will think they are an overgrading dick, or a strong midget

[Andy B]

your first paragraph doesn't make sense andy. what are you saying?

Are you still pissed?

Jasper asked who, in this thread, had been offering down grades without having done a problem.

The answer is Joe, Dave and maybe him.

joe n dave haven't done all the probs so have no valid opinion?

As I keep saying, I think that their opinion of the grade of a problem that they haven't done is less valid than that of someone who has.

plus i didn't fit words on you suggesting 8a+ for that problem to fit my rant, you said the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, in simple english this implies that the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, oh wait, substantially harder, 8a. whats next?

1. I didn't suggest a grade, you've just made that up.
2. I didn't say the move was substantially harder than any 8a I have done.
3. I didn't mention individual moves at all.

Please read more carefully before ranting.