Dense you turnip you should read what people actually post rather than what you think they post.Tim made the point that it's hard to justify a claim of easy for the grade if you haven't done a problem, which seems pretty sensible and I tend to agree with although will concede there will be exceptions.Obviously if you haven't done something and it is of a grade that you feel you can climb then a claim of hard for the grade makes sense, again there will be exceptions.Come on, does this simple shit really need explaining in such explicit detail?What was that?
Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method.what on earth are you saying? are you trying to suggest this may be 8a+? you've said you've only tried it, this implies you've not done it yet you seem to have an opinion about it's grade, yet you agreed with tim. i don't really know what to say
to be honest i agree with johnny. i tried it years ago with brad of brads wall fame. nearly latched the top move, a lot, and i can't jump out of a bunched position. johnny however can, the top move had never seen 8a, i would have been quite happy to tick 7b+ for it, maybe 7c.*
Kudos Traverse 7a+
What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.
Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.
Quote from: Andy B on March 20, 2010, 10:51:29 amObviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.Not always. Recently someone (who has done it) claimed, in all seriousness, that the Prow at t'Tor is French 7a+. Most climbers wouldn't even have to fail on the Prow but merely look at it to arrive at a more accurate grade. Not the best example as its a route rather than a problem I know.
I'm sorry, but OF COURSE you can have a valid opinion of a grade without having completed a problem/route. As human beings we are very good as using our past experience and integrating all manor of different information and variables to make judgements. If a person has sufficient experience, and has spent sufficient time on a problem, and has done all the moves and some decent links, they can formulate an opinion as to how hard the porblem will be. We're not gerbils.
Quote from: Andy B on March 20, 2010, 10:51:29 amThat's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.It was an illustration that some peoples opinion irrespective of their experience of a problem or a route can be wayward. Polling opinion is the long term answer when there are enough to poll. Grading is best done by consensus - the bigger the sample the better. In terms of an individual judgement personally I would weight an opinion on a grade more on how experienced and reliable the person was who gave it rather than what style they had done or attempted a problem or route. You would also tend to factor in morphology, their stengths and weaknesses and how much below or above their normal grade they werre commenting on especially if intending to have a go yourself. Relative levels of steely finger strength is I would think a big factor in swaying opinion one way or the other at Kudos Wall - but as I have only failed on Kudos what would I know!!
That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.
So just to summarise then, we've established that whether you've done a problem or not its perfectly possible to have a completely valid or totally invalid opinion of the grade. Glad we cleared that one up.
QuoteQuote from: Andy B on March 20, 2010, 10:51:29 amThat's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.It was an illustration that some peoples opinion irrespective of their experience of a problem or a route can be wayward. Polling opinion is the long term answer when there are enough to poll. Grading is best done by consensus - the bigger the sample the better. In terms of an individual judgement personally I would weight an opinion on a grade more on how experienced and reliable the person was who gave it rather than what style they had done or attempted a problem or route. You would also tend to factor in morphology, their stengths and weaknesses and how much below or above their normal grade they werre commenting on especially if intending to have a go yourself. Relative levels of steely finger strength is I would think a big factor in swaying opinion one way or the other at Kudos Wall - but as I have only failed on Kudos what would I know!! All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy, and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.
Sort your quotes out IO#1! Quote from: dave on March 22, 2010, 01:35:10 pmI kept trying and lost the will to live. Soz.
I kept trying and lost the will to live. Soz.
All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy, and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.
Something wierd seems to be going on with the quoting. I've tried to change that twice, and I'm pretty sure I've got it right, but it keeps posting like that?
Quote from: Andy B on March 22, 2010, 04:19:27 pmAll that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy , and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.Who was doing that though?
All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy , and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.
as I tried to point out in an earlier post, there is a difference between "declaring something easy" and saying that you believe it to be a certain grade (and "hard" or "soft" within that grade).
Sometimes those that have may have more of a vested interest in inflating or deflating the grade!
your first paragraph doesn't make sense andy. what are you saying?
joe n dave haven't done all the probs so have no valid opinion?
plus i didn't fit words on you suggesting 8a+ for that problem to fit my rant, you said the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, in simple english this implies that the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, oh wait, substantially harder, 8a. whats next?