[Jaspersharpe]

I also know that some people swing there heel straight up and flag loads with the left leg!

Never thought of that.

4 methods for you to choose from!

There's also the totally basic and super tensiony "just stick your toe in the low pocket and pull hard" option.

[monkey boy]

Yeah that normally ends up as cutting loose for me but again if conditions are good this is ok!

[Jaspersharpe]

True, normally ends up with my arse on the pad when I try it!

[saltbeef]

hmmm, maybe i just need to try harder. might re-try dob eggs beta. have bee trying ed's sequence that uses a really high edge more or less directly below the sloper and flagging left (but the alsatian hips conspire and prise me from the rock)

[Jaspersharpe]

I concur that this is by far the hardest move on the problem and any talk of the move to the undercut being harder is crack pipe gibberish or a really bad foot sequence.

[tim palmer]

The grades from the old guidebook are fine, absolutely no need to change them. 
Everyone says tsunami is easy but i disagree, granted i did it the matching way but i think 7c+ is mean to say the least.  Low left is maybe low in the grade for 8a+ but it is harder than any 8a i have ever done and the grade has to start somewhere. 
As for the grade of that link that simpson did, i think it was probably a combination of Simpson being a bit competitive in his grading and him having the problems utterly utterly wired. 
Rubicon is an accessible crag with reliable conditions and a fairly basic style of climbing so it makes sense that people who climb predominantly indoors (like me) should do these problems, and in some instances quickly (not like me).  But i don't  think that means the grades should be hammered down too far. 
At a push tsunami and Low right are soft but i have done softer 8as in the uk and abroad. 

N.B. if you haven't done a problem don't say it is soft, because if it was that soft you should have done it!

[Jaspersharpe]

anyone who thinks you have to climb something to have a very good idea how hard it is "is a fucking idiot", and you can quote me

[dave]

N.B. if you haven't done a problem don't say it is soft, because if it was that soft you should have done it!

That makes no sense.

[tim palmer]

So the statement- "i haven't done it but it is easy" makes sense. 
I think if you haven't done something and you say it is easy, it is quite dishonest, because you don't know.  All this "from my great experience i deam it not worthy of the grade", is the refrain of someone too  lazy to do the route or problem.
 

[dave]

Makes more sense than saying that a problem being soft means somehow that everyone should be able to do it.

[Paul B]

I waltzed along to the final move of a problem in Magic Wood given a lofty grade and then fell off tickling the jug. I tried this a few more times (less than 3) and it was seriously just a matter of time before I stuck it. I instantly pronounced it soft. Are you saying that I can't then have the opinion that said problem is soft because the difficulty I'm saying it doesn't have could be that last miniscule amount before holding the swing? or that I'm lazy to lose interest?

(edit because I can't get my words right)

[Stubbs]

The move to the jug on Wonderboy is pretty tough Paul, better luck next time 

[tim palmer]

Yes.
what i meant was, to say "this route is soft for the grade" means two things, you have done a sufficient number of problems of a similar grade and you have done it relatively easily relative to the other problems of that type and grade. 
Therefore if you are saying it is soft, you should have done it.
I don't think you have the right to say it unless you have done the problem.

[Stubbs]

 
Therefore if you are saying it is soft, you should have done it.
I don't think you have the right to say it unless you have done the problem.

I concur.

[dave]

Tim, I've never seen the earth from space, and I've never been on other planets of similar shape - am I qualified to say the earth is a sphere in your opinion?

[Stubbs]

You could say so, but you'd be wrong; oblate spheroid homes!

[dave]

Please, geometry isn't an exact science.

[tim palmer]

the earth is flat isn't it?

[Jaspersharpe]

What hogwash. Look at The Sausage's description of why he thinks Low Left Press is 8A. It makes perfect sense.

I think Tsunami is 8A but soft for the grade for the same reason. My opinion will be the same once I finally do it. What will have changed? And "soft" is not an insult, just an opinion on the relative difficulty of a problem within a grade range.

I haven't done Hubble but I know what grade it is etc.

[Paul B]

If you apply the reverse logic you can't say something is hard unless you haven't done it? 

[nik at work]

Dave you're normally on the money but that is a pretty left-field comparison.
Paul I can see your point but the fact remains you didn't do the problem, maybe you should have had one more go and crushed it then declared it soft  , or maybe after another 20,30,40, whatever goes you might be thinking hmmm that last move is a sting in the tail....

Of course you can have an opinion, I've got endless opinions on stuff I know very little/fuck all about so you having an opinion on the grade of a problem you've almost done is fine and dandy. But if someone is making bold statements about a problems grade it would be informative to know whether this was a ticked problem, work in progress or even based on a hazy memory from several years ago when said person had a play on the moves for five minutes and it didn't seem that bad. Just to get a sense of perspective.

[tim palmer]

I haven't done Hubble but I know what grade it is etc.

hogwash indeed.

If you apply the reverse logic you can't say something is hard unless you haven't done it? 

no, because that doesn't make any sense.

[Jaspersharpe]

How is what I said hogwash exactly? 

[tim palmer]

because it was a fatuous thing to say.  You don't KNOW do you, you have a vague idea on what you have read. 

[Jaspersharpe]

Well no actually. I have a pretty good idea based on how hard I thought it was in comparison to the two 8cs I'd been on at the time. Which was my point. I haven't done it but I know how hard it is.